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A lot of vehicle manufacturers don't even give you access to their repair/diagnostic software even if you want to pay. Tesla for example lets you pay to access

A lot of vehicle manufacturers don't even give you access to their repair/diagnostic software even if you want to pay. Tesla for example lets you pay to access their diagnostic software, so why is John Deere the bad guy here?

jchw 23d ago
Oh that's simple. Both Tesla and John Deere are bad guys. And yes. I am happy to expand that list to literally every other manufacturer you have in mind. They are all bad guys too. If manufacturers were altruistic good guys, they would need no regulation.
- arrowsmith 23d ago
  If all manufacturers except one were altruistic good guys, the one malevolent bad guy would undercut the altruists and drive them out of business. Regulation is the solution to this prisoner’s dilemma.
  - phyzix5761 23d ago
    Heavy regulations are the reason why we have the John Deere semi monopoly. The regulatory entry cost is in the millions for any new player to enter the market so no one wants to compete and provide better service.
    - Eisenstein 23d ago
      So are for some regulations but not others. I think that is most people's stance. It's more constructive if we talk about which specific ones.
    - dreamcompiler 23d ago
      I call bullshit until you cite evidence. Farm equipment doesn't even need to comply with road vehicle requirements. What special regulations does a farm equipment manufacturer need to comply with that don't apply to any other industrial manufacturer?
      - phyzix5761 23d ago
        $50,100 per employee in regulatory safety and compliance costs.[0] Up to $8k per engine unit produced in EPA regulatory fees.[1] Between $100k and $500k per engine model variant for EPA testing and General Compliance.[2] $100k to $200k for Transient & Steady-State Dynamometer Testing.[2] $150k per engine variant for Useful Life Deterioration Testing.[2] [0] https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers-about-50000-per-employee/ https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers... [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U/part-1039 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U... [2] https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-heavy-equipment-compression https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin...
        laughing_man 23d ago
        That's normal stuff for anyone producing a vehicle, isn't it?
    - skeeter2020 23d ago
      This is just not true - their machines are purposely opaque and loaded with DRM. Regulation in this area could potentially make the entire system more efficient and cheaper for everyone at the cost of JD's predatory practices. In addition to owners there are lots of independents who could work on JD equipment, but they are all literally locked out.
      - deleted 23d ago
        [deleted]
      - samudrijan 23d ago
        It depends on who writes the regulations. Today money writes the regs and people pay the price. Take money out of politics. But all three branches are captured. Anything that resembles returning power to the people is derided as socialism. So the result is power over the people.
    - pvab3 23d ago
      the cost of starting a company that makes a line of tractors combines and sprayers is probably second only to an aircraft manufacturer in difficulty and complexity
      - taylorfinley 23d ago
        I think China has this all sorted, we should just have a free market without tarrifs. Let the market provide us the best, un-enshittified products we can find. I am old enough to remember when that was a conservative position.
        pocksuppet 23d ago
        The conservative position is always whatever benefits conservatives at this moment. Back when they supported a free market, a freer market benefitted them. When market regulations benefitted them, they supported a more regulated market.
        sire-vc 22d ago
        Supporting whatever benefits you is called a 'political position', not a conservative one.
        pocksuppet 22d ago
        It's conservatives. Leftists are often found supporting things that hurt them, and liberals usually don't support anything at all.
    - jawilson2 23d ago
      Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Good regulation: right to repair, manufacturers must supply manuals. Bad regulation: JD bribed senators to write regulations that make it insurmountably difficult for new players to enter. Calling regulation bad because corruption is baked into the US Constitution makes it really hard to get anything done.
      - cucumber3732842 23d ago
        >Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Every regulation looks good or at least defensible in abstract, especially when some peddler is trying to sell it and the consequences aren't obvious yet.
    - mindslight 23d ago
      Given how each tractor manufacturer is essentially associated with its own specific country, I'd say this industry is a great example of how mature industries tend to consolidate into monopolies while getting propped up by regulatory capture greased by concerns over natural security. So while the regulatory costs you cite may indeed be onerous, simplistic calls merely for "less regulation" don't bear out.
    - snypher 22d ago
      I can start building tractors tomorrow, what regulatory entry cost are you talking about?
RobotToaster 23d ago
Real life isn't as simple as the one in fairy tales, there's usually more than one villain.
voxl 23d ago
Whataboutism. Two evils are still evil.
nvme0n1p1 23d ago
When I bought my current car, it came with an owners manual--for free!! I can grab any data I want from the OBD port. The hardware was cheap, the software to use it is, again, free. I'm not excited about this brave new world where you have to pay a subscription fee to plug a cable into a device you own and interact with it, and even less excited there are people here defending the idea.
- loopies 23d ago
  What you want is the service manual. Owner manual should be implicit. OBD port can work for some cars, for some of the data. But other cars do have specialized gear they require to either access either reset some stuff in some of the car's computers.
  - somehnguy 23d ago
    Yeah the owners and service manuals are two very very different things. You won't be performing much maintenance with the owners manual besides the absolute basics, like checking your oil. The cheap OBD2 readers lack the vast majority of data and tools you would want to use for service as well. There are aftermarket options but most manufacturers want you to subscribe to their service tools - often charged per monthly plus an additional a fee per VIN it touches. These cost in the hundreds to thousands. It can be pretty frustrating as a shadetree mechanic.
    - lazide 23d ago
      Notably, some vehicles like the Toyota Highlander you can’t even figure out when you need to change the spark plugs, let alone what kind of spark plugs you need from the owners manual. Theoretically, they are to be replaced at 120k miles (!!) but they won’t even tell you that in the owners manual. Insane.
      - somehnguy 23d ago
        It is, yeah. The owners manual for my current vehicle seems to mostly contain walkthroughs about the infotainment and other tech features. The section related to maintenance is tiny in comparison. You're probably aware of this already but luckily a lot of service manuals can be found online in PDF form. Somewhat related but I was going through an older relatives belongings not too long ago to help cleanup and found a bunch of old manuals for various household things. The detail included in them was beautiful to see - full wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, etc.
DuncanCoffee 23d ago
Because in agriculture you are absolutely expecting to be able to repair stuff yourself. I work on a project related to it and was absolutely surprised at how the company gave instructions to the clients to help them fix their machines (stuff I wouldn't be able to do myself). Having a non-working machine can mean big $$ lost everyday.
geoduck14 23d ago
Like others have said: Tesla is the bath guy here. I'm pretty sure most people are focused on the other ways Tesla has been fing around that they just haven't gotten this far down the list. Also, there's something special about tractors. Their owners (farmers) are both willing and capable of repairing tractors, in general, so John Deere is demonized for taking that ability away. Where as Tesla's owners are comfortable not changing their own oil, so "less" was taken away. (Yes, I know Tesla doesn't have engine oil, don't get hung up on that)
- skeeter2020 23d ago
  A tractor - and all farm equipment - is ridiculously expensive, the core platform is not much different from previous generations and they are used by a respected segment of our society to grow us food. All of this adds up to make JD's impact large and feel much worse than the relative nitpicks we have with many car manufacturers.
mplewis 23d ago
Tesla is the bad guy too.
laughing_man 23d ago
This is actually pretty widespread on newer models. There are cars for which you need a subscription costing thousands of dollars every year to put your parking brake into "maintenance mode", without which you can't fix your own brakes.

jchw 23d ago

Oh that's simple. Both Tesla and John Deere are bad guys. And yes. I am happy to expand that list to literally every other manufacturer you have in mind. They are all bad guys too. If manufacturers were altruistic good guys, they would need no regulation.

arrowsmith 23d ago
If all manufacturers except one were altruistic good guys, the one malevolent bad guy would undercut the altruists and drive them out of business. Regulation is the solution to this prisoner’s dilemma.
- phyzix5761 23d ago
  Heavy regulations are the reason why we have the John Deere semi monopoly. The regulatory entry cost is in the millions for any new player to enter the market so no one wants to compete and provide better service.
  - Eisenstein 23d ago
    So are for some regulations but not others. I think that is most people's stance. It's more constructive if we talk about which specific ones.
  - dreamcompiler 23d ago
    I call bullshit until you cite evidence. Farm equipment doesn't even need to comply with road vehicle requirements. What special regulations does a farm equipment manufacturer need to comply with that don't apply to any other industrial manufacturer?
    - phyzix5761 23d ago
      $50,100 per employee in regulatory safety and compliance costs.[0] Up to $8k per engine unit produced in EPA regulatory fees.[1] Between $100k and $500k per engine model variant for EPA testing and General Compliance.[2] $100k to $200k for Transient & Steady-State Dynamometer Testing.[2] $150k per engine variant for Useful Life Deterioration Testing.[2] [0] https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers-about-50000-per-employee/ https://www.msci.org/federal-rules-costs-small-manufacturers... [1] https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U/part-1039 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-U... [2] https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engines/regulations-emissions-heavy-equipment-compression https://www.epa.gov/regulations-emissions-vehicles-and-engin...
      - laughing_man 23d ago
        That's normal stuff for anyone producing a vehicle, isn't it?
  - skeeter2020 23d ago
    This is just not true - their machines are purposely opaque and loaded with DRM. Regulation in this area could potentially make the entire system more efficient and cheaper for everyone at the cost of JD's predatory practices. In addition to owners there are lots of independents who could work on JD equipment, but they are all literally locked out.
    - deleted 23d ago
      [deleted]
    - samudrijan 23d ago
      It depends on who writes the regulations. Today money writes the regs and people pay the price. Take money out of politics. But all three branches are captured. Anything that resembles returning power to the people is derided as socialism. So the result is power over the people.
  - pvab3 23d ago
    the cost of starting a company that makes a line of tractors combines and sprayers is probably second only to an aircraft manufacturer in difficulty and complexity
    - taylorfinley 23d ago
      I think China has this all sorted, we should just have a free market without tarrifs. Let the market provide us the best, un-enshittified products we can find. I am old enough to remember when that was a conservative position.
      - pocksuppet 23d ago
        The conservative position is always whatever benefits conservatives at this moment. Back when they supported a free market, a freer market benefitted them. When market regulations benefitted them, they supported a more regulated market.
        sire-vc 22d ago
        Supporting whatever benefits you is called a 'political position', not a conservative one.
        pocksuppet 22d ago
        It's conservatives. Leftists are often found supporting things that hurt them, and liberals usually don't support anything at all.
  - jawilson2 23d ago
    Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Good regulation: right to repair, manufacturers must supply manuals. Bad regulation: JD bribed senators to write regulations that make it insurmountably difficult for new players to enter. Calling regulation bad because corruption is baked into the US Constitution makes it really hard to get anything done.
    - cucumber3732842 23d ago
      >Why isn't this an apples-oranges comparison? Every regulation looks good or at least defensible in abstract, especially when some peddler is trying to sell it and the consequences aren't obvious yet.
  - mindslight 23d ago
    Given how each tractor manufacturer is essentially associated with its own specific country, I'd say this industry is a great example of how mature industries tend to consolidate into monopolies while getting propped up by regulatory capture greased by concerns over natural security. So while the regulatory costs you cite may indeed be onerous, simplistic calls merely for "less regulation" don't bear out.
  - snypher 22d ago
    I can start building tractors tomorrow, what regulatory entry cost are you talking about?

RobotToaster 23d ago

Real life isn't as simple as the one in fairy tales, there's usually more than one villain.

voxl 23d ago

Whataboutism. Two evils are still evil.

nvme0n1p1 23d ago

When I bought my current car, it came with an owners manual--for free!! I can grab any data I want from the OBD port. The hardware was cheap, the software to use it is, again, free. I'm not excited about this brave new world where you have to pay a subscription fee to plug a cable into a device you own and interact with it, and even less excited there are people here defending the idea.

loopies 23d ago
What you want is the service manual. Owner manual should be implicit. OBD port can work for some cars, for some of the data. But other cars do have specialized gear they require to either access either reset some stuff in some of the car's computers.
- somehnguy 23d ago
  Yeah the owners and service manuals are two very very different things. You won't be performing much maintenance with the owners manual besides the absolute basics, like checking your oil. The cheap OBD2 readers lack the vast majority of data and tools you would want to use for service as well. There are aftermarket options but most manufacturers want you to subscribe to their service tools - often charged per monthly plus an additional a fee per VIN it touches. These cost in the hundreds to thousands. It can be pretty frustrating as a shadetree mechanic.
  - lazide 23d ago
    Notably, some vehicles like the Toyota Highlander you can’t even figure out when you need to change the spark plugs, let alone what kind of spark plugs you need from the owners manual. Theoretically, they are to be replaced at 120k miles (!!) but they won’t even tell you that in the owners manual. Insane.
    - somehnguy 23d ago
      It is, yeah. The owners manual for my current vehicle seems to mostly contain walkthroughs about the infotainment and other tech features. The section related to maintenance is tiny in comparison. You're probably aware of this already but luckily a lot of service manuals can be found online in PDF form. Somewhat related but I was going through an older relatives belongings not too long ago to help cleanup and found a bunch of old manuals for various household things. The detail included in them was beautiful to see - full wiring diagrams, mechanical diagrams, etc.

DuncanCoffee 23d ago

Because in agriculture you are absolutely expecting to be able to repair stuff yourself. I work on a project related to it and was absolutely surprised at how the company gave instructions to the clients to help them fix their machines (stuff I wouldn't be able to do myself). Having a non-working machine can mean big $$ lost everyday.

geoduck14 23d ago

Like others have said: Tesla is the bath guy here. I'm pretty sure most people are focused on the other ways Tesla has been fing around that they just haven't gotten this far down the list. Also, there's something special about tractors. Their owners (farmers) are both willing and capable of repairing tractors, in general, so John Deere is demonized for taking that ability away. Where as Tesla's owners are comfortable not changing their own oil, so "less" was taken away. (Yes, I know Tesla doesn't have engine oil, don't get hung up on that)

skeeter2020 23d ago
A tractor - and all farm equipment - is ridiculously expensive, the core platform is not much different from previous generations and they are used by a respected segment of our society to grow us food. All of this adds up to make JD's impact large and feel much worse than the relative nitpicks we have with many car manufacturers.

mplewis 23d ago

Tesla is the bad guy too.

laughing_man 23d ago

This is actually pretty widespread on newer models. There are cars for which you need a subscription costing thousands of dollars every year to put your parking brake into "maintenance mode", without which you can't fix your own brakes.