4 ms·

The Nature of Dance

34 points by wonger_ 15d ago

robertacion 12d ago
I found quite interesting the apps the author created for dancing: https://vester.si/blog/dance-tools/ https://vester.si/blog/dance-tools/ However I could not figure out which partner dances he focuses on, I would be curious to know.
- alansaber 12d ago
  "Dance clip" seems to do exactly 0 things I can't already do with the video editor/folder system on my phone.
  - embedding-shape 12d ago
    And dropbox is merely SCP/FTP, yet there they stand.
- amelius 12d ago
  Looks like he's into Urban Kiz (I suspect a kind of Kizomba, which is quite popular in Europe). Note: the author is also on HN. He made this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49649789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49649789
  - vesterde 12d ago
    I did not expect my weekend and week to be spent on the first page of HN, let me tell you.
- vesterde 12d ago
  Several, but as the other comment pointed out, Urban Kiz is my main focus, as well as Tarraxo and Zouk.
noelwelsh 12d ago
When I think about dance, it's about the algebraic structure in it. E.g. translating moves between different levels, transitions between moves, and so on. That, and the movement options that increased physical capabilities unlock. So nothing like what OP thinks about. Not a criticism of what they've written; just a different perspective.
- plastic-enjoyer 12d ago
  Once again, I’m not at all surprised that tech people can’t simply enjoy the activity for its own sake, but instead impose their calculating, utility-driven mindset on something that is truly beautiful and brings people together. An absolutely bleak perspective.
  - noelwelsh 12d ago
    Don't tell me how I should enjoy my hobby.
    - deleted 12d ago
      [deleted]
  - TFNA 12d ago
    I wouldn't knock neuroatypical people's attempt to overcome their faulty wiring and do something that could socially benefit them, even if the perspective they are doing it from is strange. RMS has spoken about how getting into Bulgarian folk dance was good for him.
  - embedding-shape 12d ago
    > tech people can’t simply enjoy the activity for its own sake How is this possibly your take away from someone describing how they see something? You know nothing about this person, yet conclude they have a bleak perspective, yet you're the one who is criticizing someone for merely thinking and talking about an activity. Let people enjoy activities in the way they want. If they want to endlessly analyze and discuss the mechanical details about it, or if they just want to stand on the top of a roof in the rain and dance, who cares? They're both "enjoying" the activity, just in different ways.
high_na_euv 12d ago
>Learning styles aren't a thing*. It was an idea popularized many years ago - that some people learn by seeing, some by hearing, others by thinking about things , etc... - and has been so thorougly proven not to replicate that when teachers use it to promote their methodology I practice my breathing exercises to not let it get to me. What??? Ppl definitely learn by various means. Im reading it wrong or what?
- chrisjj 12d ago
  Means != styles. https://onlineteaching.umich.edu/articles/the-myth-of-learning-styles/ https://onlineteaching.umich.edu/articles/the-myth-of-learni...
- phrotoma 12d ago
  In my day job I am an instructor. It has become fashionable of late to shit on the idea of learning styles for various reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles#Criticism
- vesterde 12d ago
  I agree, and actually I put that asterisk there all that time ago when I wrote that article intending to put a footnote at the end, and clearly forgot. I meant to say that yes certainly people don't learn in the same way, but the thing I'm averse to is someone saying "I learn by seeing", and leaving it at that. It's simplistic, and I've found that individuals can also be wrong about their own opinion if their learning style. The way I read some of the literature is that these may more often map to preferences, so the individual may prefer to see things, when learning, but it might not actually lead to more learning happening. In dance I would yield that some people can repeat a movement just by seeing it, and others can't, but again I would say that's a learning style, I'd say there's a capacity inside them that is less strong/developed, translating movement seen to movement done. And it can be improved.
xfeeefeee 12d ago
Dance is such a nuanced thing. Really I think it is more like a language than anything else. My favorite example of this is at somewhere like a rave or Phish show etc where you can see people form their own little conversations and groups and move on as the night goes. And of course you have people just enjoying having a nice talk with themselves and the music. In more professional settings you see people try to fit dance into little boxes and say what it is or is not... it predates spoken language. It is something very primal, not even uniquely human.
- embedding-shape 12d ago
  Dancing in large groups with other humans truly is primal, and something special. It's akin to the experience I think people get when going to church and similar things, weirdly enough. Everything is so artificial online today as well, that maybe it's the contrast between what we see all day vs when we're at events, that make it all seem extra special nowadays.
  - adzm 12d ago
    Before I went to my first Phish show I always heard people refer to it as their church; it didn't make sense to me until I went. Even being sober, it was a very powerful experience, and the sense of connection and community was very enlightening.
    - embedding-shape 12d ago
      Never went to a Phish show, but now you got my interest up :) I'm mostly coming from the electronic music scene, in various capacities, and pretty much the same feeling and senses exposed in those, even in more "artificial" music styles. I feel like a lot of the "AI-doomerism" could be solved if people go out where large groups listen to music, and dance together with strangers. I even wrote about one recent experience in more detail some weeks ago: https://emsh.cat/en/the-people-are-still-there/ https://emsh.cat/en/the-people-are-still-there/
  - gilleain 12d ago
srean 12d ago
https://divisbyzero.com/2009/05/04/the-maypole-braid-group/ https://divisbyzero.com/2009/05/04/the-maypole-braid-group/ Of maypole dance and the algebra of braids
deskamess 12d ago
I have been seeing many videos on aging and how dance is a good option to delay dementia as it uses both the mind and body (assuming you try new dance moves as the old ones become automatic). What is the best way to get into dance if you are above 40 and have heavy feet? For me this is purely for mind-body benefits and not to get 'good' at a particular style. I guess same can be said for picking up a musical instrument although the physical aspect seems less involved (unless you are drumming). Some sort of weekly progression chart.
- vanjajaja1 12d ago
  if you avoid the ideological capture of "getting good at [dance style]" then what you dance means is "playing with the physical energy stored in the body" muscles store physical energy in the form of tension, if you can create a bit of tension [here] then smoothly transfer it [there] you are "dancing". how it looks to an observer is irrelevant. stretch this game enough on every dimension and it will eventually start to look [positive valence] to observers
- vesterde 12d ago
  If you're male (or want to dance as a leader), there are universally not enough of you to go around in partner dancing (with occasional exceptions), so any partner dance you pick you should be well received if you aren't a creep and just do the work to improve. Some of these dances are easier to get into than others. So your area might have salsa classes. Salsa is nice because it's easy to get into, but you can keep getting better at it forever. Bachata is similar but it's a bit more intimate in my view, so depends what you're after. Some places just have "social dancing" classes, which is a different thing each week, but they might require you bring a partner, so look into it. If you're from the US, or less commonly outside of the US, line dancing is a non-partner dance, so a group dance. One of my best friends does it and he loves it. Again don't need to be good to start.
  - kukkeliskuu 12d ago
    Even if for most areas and most partner dances, there are less leaders than followers, this is not universally true. For instance in Turkey and Buenos Aires, there are many tourists of both sexes, while local women are culturally biased not to participate while local men are culturally biased to participate, hence creating a different gender balance.
elendilm 12d ago
I found occasionally dancing after a long time invigorating. But afterwards, dancing for many days contiguously, my experience is that I get bored and stop until the cycle repeats. > I practice my breathing exercises to not let it get to me This turns on the bullshit detection alarm in my head. Breathing bullshitters exist everywhere these days. But otherwise simple and entertaining content.
- gushogg-blake 12d ago
  > bullshit detection This doesn't sound like anything that's not accepted by mainstream medicine to me. If they'd started bringing pseudoscientific ideas in then sure, but breathing exercises are a well-known way to regulate your nervous system aren't they?
  - elendilm 12d ago
    Breathing bullshitters in my experience goes hand in hand with people who ask to "calm down and take a deep breath" in the midst of a discussion due to their inability to match the speed of the discussion or because they want to save face. Usually a honest "can you slow down, I am not following" or "I was wrong" would be a respectful approach. But alas, honesty is alien for breathing bullshitters. This doesn't apply to everyone. But its so numerous, that the moment someone mentions breathing bullshit, the skeptic in me turns on the bullshit detector. The pseudoscience that often comes afterwards is just icing on the cake.

34 points by wonger_ 15d ago

I found quite interesting the apps the author created for dancing: https://vester.si/blog/dance-tools/ https://vester.si/blog/dance-tools/ However I could not figure out which partner dances he focuses on, I would be curious to know.

alansaber 12d ago
"Dance clip" seems to do exactly 0 things I can't already do with the video editor/folder system on my phone.
- embedding-shape 12d ago
  And dropbox is merely SCP/FTP, yet there they stand.
amelius 12d ago
Looks like he's into Urban Kiz (I suspect a kind of Kizomba, which is quite popular in Europe). Note: the author is also on HN. He made this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49649789 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49649789
- vesterde 12d ago
  I did not expect my weekend and week to be spent on the first page of HN, let me tell you.
vesterde 12d ago
Several, but as the other comment pointed out, Urban Kiz is my main focus, as well as Tarraxo and Zouk.

noelwelsh 12d ago

When I think about dance, it's about the algebraic structure in it. E.g. translating moves between different levels, transitions between moves, and so on. That, and the movement options that increased physical capabilities unlock. So nothing like what OP thinks about. Not a criticism of what they've written; just a different perspective.

plastic-enjoyer 12d ago
Once again, I’m not at all surprised that tech people can’t simply enjoy the activity for its own sake, but instead impose their calculating, utility-driven mindset on something that is truly beautiful and brings people together. An absolutely bleak perspective.
- noelwelsh 12d ago
  Don't tell me how I should enjoy my hobby.
  - deleted 12d ago
    [deleted]
- TFNA 12d ago
  I wouldn't knock neuroatypical people's attempt to overcome their faulty wiring and do something that could socially benefit them, even if the perspective they are doing it from is strange. RMS has spoken about how getting into Bulgarian folk dance was good for him.
- embedding-shape 12d ago
  > tech people can’t simply enjoy the activity for its own sake How is this possibly your take away from someone describing how they see something? You know nothing about this person, yet conclude they have a bleak perspective, yet you're the one who is criticizing someone for merely thinking and talking about an activity. Let people enjoy activities in the way they want. If they want to endlessly analyze and discuss the mechanical details about it, or if they just want to stand on the top of a roof in the rain and dance, who cares? They're both "enjoying" the activity, just in different ways.

high_na_euv 12d ago

>Learning styles aren't a thing*. It was an idea popularized many years ago - that some people learn by seeing, some by hearing, others by thinking about things , etc... - and has been so thorougly proven not to replicate that when teachers use it to promote their methodology I practice my breathing exercises to not let it get to me. What??? Ppl definitely learn by various means. Im reading it wrong or what?

chrisjj 12d ago
Means != styles. https://onlineteaching.umich.edu/articles/the-myth-of-learning-styles/ https://onlineteaching.umich.edu/articles/the-myth-of-learni...
phrotoma 12d ago
In my day job I am an instructor. It has become fashionable of late to shit on the idea of learning styles for various reasons. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_styles#Criticism
vesterde 12d ago
I agree, and actually I put that asterisk there all that time ago when I wrote that article intending to put a footnote at the end, and clearly forgot. I meant to say that yes certainly people don't learn in the same way, but the thing I'm averse to is someone saying "I learn by seeing", and leaving it at that. It's simplistic, and I've found that individuals can also be wrong about their own opinion if their learning style. The way I read some of the literature is that these may more often map to preferences, so the individual may prefer to see things, when learning, but it might not actually lead to more learning happening. In dance I would yield that some people can repeat a movement just by seeing it, and others can't, but again I would say that's a learning style, I'd say there's a capacity inside them that is less strong/developed, translating movement seen to movement done. And it can be improved.

xfeeefeee 12d ago

Dance is such a nuanced thing. Really I think it is more like a language than anything else. My favorite example of this is at somewhere like a rave or Phish show etc where you can see people form their own little conversations and groups and move on as the night goes. And of course you have people just enjoying having a nice talk with themselves and the music. In more professional settings you see people try to fit dance into little boxes and say what it is or is not... it predates spoken language. It is something very primal, not even uniquely human.

embedding-shape 12d ago
Dancing in large groups with other humans truly is primal, and something special. It's akin to the experience I think people get when going to church and similar things, weirdly enough. Everything is so artificial online today as well, that maybe it's the contrast between what we see all day vs when we're at events, that make it all seem extra special nowadays.
- adzm 12d ago
  Before I went to my first Phish show I always heard people refer to it as their church; it didn't make sense to me until I went. Even being sober, it was a very powerful experience, and the sense of connection and community was very enlightening.
  - embedding-shape 12d ago
    Never went to a Phish show, but now you got my interest up :) I'm mostly coming from the electronic music scene, in various capacities, and pretty much the same feeling and senses exposed in those, even in more "artificial" music styles. I feel like a lot of the "AI-doomerism" could be solved if people go out where large groups listen to music, and dance together with strangers. I even wrote about one recent experience in more detail some weeks ago: https://emsh.cat/en/the-people-are-still-there/ https://emsh.cat/en/the-people-are-still-there/
- gilleain 12d ago

srean 12d ago

https://divisbyzero.com/2009/05/04/the-maypole-braid-group/ https://divisbyzero.com/2009/05/04/the-maypole-braid-group/ Of maypole dance and the algebra of braids

deskamess 12d ago

I have been seeing many videos on aging and how dance is a good option to delay dementia as it uses both the mind and body (assuming you try new dance moves as the old ones become automatic). What is the best way to get into dance if you are above 40 and have heavy feet? For me this is purely for mind-body benefits and not to get 'good' at a particular style. I guess same can be said for picking up a musical instrument although the physical aspect seems less involved (unless you are drumming). Some sort of weekly progression chart.

vanjajaja1 12d ago
if you avoid the ideological capture of "getting good at [dance style]" then what you dance means is "playing with the physical energy stored in the body" muscles store physical energy in the form of tension, if you can create a bit of tension [here] then smoothly transfer it [there] you are "dancing". how it looks to an observer is irrelevant. stretch this game enough on every dimension and it will eventually start to look [positive valence] to observers
vesterde 12d ago
If you're male (or want to dance as a leader), there are universally not enough of you to go around in partner dancing (with occasional exceptions), so any partner dance you pick you should be well received if you aren't a creep and just do the work to improve. Some of these dances are easier to get into than others. So your area might have salsa classes. Salsa is nice because it's easy to get into, but you can keep getting better at it forever. Bachata is similar but it's a bit more intimate in my view, so depends what you're after. Some places just have "social dancing" classes, which is a different thing each week, but they might require you bring a partner, so look into it. If you're from the US, or less commonly outside of the US, line dancing is a non-partner dance, so a group dance. One of my best friends does it and he loves it. Again don't need to be good to start.
- kukkeliskuu 12d ago
  Even if for most areas and most partner dances, there are less leaders than followers, this is not universally true. For instance in Turkey and Buenos Aires, there are many tourists of both sexes, while local women are culturally biased not to participate while local men are culturally biased to participate, hence creating a different gender balance.

elendilm 12d ago

I found occasionally dancing after a long time invigorating. But afterwards, dancing for many days contiguously, my experience is that I get bored and stop until the cycle repeats. > I practice my breathing exercises to not let it get to me This turns on the bullshit detection alarm in my head. Breathing bullshitters exist everywhere these days. But otherwise simple and entertaining content.

gushogg-blake 12d ago
> bullshit detection This doesn't sound like anything that's not accepted by mainstream medicine to me. If they'd started bringing pseudoscientific ideas in then sure, but breathing exercises are a well-known way to regulate your nervous system aren't they?
- elendilm 12d ago
  Breathing bullshitters in my experience goes hand in hand with people who ask to "calm down and take a deep breath" in the midst of a discussion due to their inability to match the speed of the discussion or because they want to save face. Usually a honest "can you slow down, I am not following" or "I was wrong" would be a respectful approach. But alas, honesty is alien for breathing bullshitters. This doesn't apply to everyone. But its so numerous, that the moment someone mentions breathing bullshit, the skeptic in me turns on the bullshit detector. The pseudoscience that often comes afterwards is just icing on the cake.