5 ms·

Obligatory XKCD link: http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/

by netvarun 14y ago

tete 14y ago
A codec isn't exactly(!) a standard.
- Klinky 14y ago
  I am going to have to say that MPEG-4, and specifically MPEG-4 Part 2 and MPEG-4 Part 10 are indeed video encoding standards. The different individual parts even have their own ISO numbers. Thus I do feel the "relevant XKCD comic" is relevant, even if some find the posting of such comics annoying.
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    The thing is, the reason for new codecs isn't better covering existing use cases, it's using better knowledge and techniques and wildly changing space/computation/power requirements to fit a new profile. There's no need to replace telnet. There is a need to replace gif wrt animated images.
    - Klinky 14y ago
      A) H.264 replaced MPEG2 largely to make video on disc look better, i.e. an existing use case. B) I am not sure what use cases have to do with the point the XKCD comic was making. The open web people wanted Theora, Google offered WebM and most everyone else settled on continuing to use H.264. Unless the Daala people can get some good lobbying, or can make their codec in such a way that minimal effort is required by hardware vendors to support both H.265 and Daala, then I think it's likely to end the same way as previous open video codec attempts.
      - Dylan16807 14y ago
        A) Video on disc, with hardware a decade more advanced, is not the same use case any more. B) I agree that WebM fits with the XKCD comic because it's doing the same thing as an existing widespread standard but 'ours is more awesome trust us'. But changing hardware and math make a legitimate need for the creation of 265/daala. If 265 was already finished and implemented you could make the XKCD argument, but it's not.
        Klinky 14y ago
        I am still going to have to call "video on a disc" a valid use case. The internal hardware would matter if I was arguing that there was no point in advancing video codecs, which I don't think anyone is saying. I don't see how you can say the XKCD comic applies to WebM/H264 but can't apply to H265/Daala because they are "proposed standards", and have not yet been implemented. If anything that makes it's specifically applicable to H265/Daala. A proposed standard going against another proposed standard touting benefits the other one doesn't have, but in the end it will probably just muddy the water a little bit.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        The XKCD comic is about looking at the landscape of near-equivalent standards and trying to make one that's subjectively better. WebM looked at the landscape of H.264 and tried to be subjectively better. People didn't want to switch, it didn't get anywhere. H.265 is looking at the landscape of H.264 plus time and better methods/computers and is trying to be objectively better. It objectively uses far less bandwidth for the same quality; it is a generation ahead. Daala is looking at the landscape of H.264 plus time and better methods/computers and is trying to be objectively better, the same way H.265 is. H.265 and Daala are equals (as far as I know) in trying to replace obsolete technology. Neither one is trying to be a more friendly/clean/nice replacement at the same level as existing and working standards. Side note: What is the comic even talking about with character encodings? As far as universal character encodings there's what, three, all of them Unicode? Two if you ignore china? Before that you had a bunch of country-specific pages but they weren't competing. EBCDIC vs. ASCII isn't exactly a plethora either...
ldng 14y ago
Well it is different. The aim is not competing standard here but rather unencumbered alternative so to me that XKCD comic isn't very relevant.
- aniket_ray 14y ago
  On the contrary, is very relevant and this joke is an old one used many times in the codec community. Theora was supposed to be the unencumbered alternative, then it was VP8 and now it's Daala. Unfortunately, all these and even closed/patented codecs have just muddied the waters rather than being the "alternative" that solves it all. Getting adoption of codecs is much harder in today's world than it ever was. The online, mobile and browse worlds are so divided than no company would ever want to give another an advantage by adopting the other companies codec.

Obligatory XKCD link: http://xkcd.com/927/ http://xkcd.com/927/

tete 14y ago

A codec isn't exactly(!) a standard.

Klinky 14y ago
I am going to have to say that MPEG-4, and specifically MPEG-4 Part 2 and MPEG-4 Part 10 are indeed video encoding standards. The different individual parts even have their own ISO numbers. Thus I do feel the "relevant XKCD comic" is relevant, even if some find the posting of such comics annoying.
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  The thing is, the reason for new codecs isn't better covering existing use cases, it's using better knowledge and techniques and wildly changing space/computation/power requirements to fit a new profile. There's no need to replace telnet. There is a need to replace gif wrt animated images.
  - Klinky 14y ago
    A) H.264 replaced MPEG2 largely to make video on disc look better, i.e. an existing use case. B) I am not sure what use cases have to do with the point the XKCD comic was making. The open web people wanted Theora, Google offered WebM and most everyone else settled on continuing to use H.264. Unless the Daala people can get some good lobbying, or can make their codec in such a way that minimal effort is required by hardware vendors to support both H.265 and Daala, then I think it's likely to end the same way as previous open video codec attempts.
    - Dylan16807 14y ago
      A) Video on disc, with hardware a decade more advanced, is not the same use case any more. B) I agree that WebM fits with the XKCD comic because it's doing the same thing as an existing widespread standard but 'ours is more awesome trust us'. But changing hardware and math make a legitimate need for the creation of 265/daala. If 265 was already finished and implemented you could make the XKCD argument, but it's not.
      - Klinky 14y ago
        I am still going to have to call "video on a disc" a valid use case. The internal hardware would matter if I was arguing that there was no point in advancing video codecs, which I don't think anyone is saying. I don't see how you can say the XKCD comic applies to WebM/H264 but can't apply to H265/Daala because they are "proposed standards", and have not yet been implemented. If anything that makes it's specifically applicable to H265/Daala. A proposed standard going against another proposed standard touting benefits the other one doesn't have, but in the end it will probably just muddy the water a little bit.
        Dylan16807 14y ago
        The XKCD comic is about looking at the landscape of near-equivalent standards and trying to make one that's subjectively better. WebM looked at the landscape of H.264 and tried to be subjectively better. People didn't want to switch, it didn't get anywhere. H.265 is looking at the landscape of H.264 plus time and better methods/computers and is trying to be objectively better. It objectively uses far less bandwidth for the same quality; it is a generation ahead. Daala is looking at the landscape of H.264 plus time and better methods/computers and is trying to be objectively better, the same way H.265 is. H.265 and Daala are equals (as far as I know) in trying to replace obsolete technology. Neither one is trying to be a more friendly/clean/nice replacement at the same level as existing and working standards. Side note: What is the comic even talking about with character encodings? As far as universal character encodings there's what, three, all of them Unicode? Two if you ignore china? Before that you had a bunch of country-specific pages but they weren't competing. EBCDIC vs. ASCII isn't exactly a plethora either...

ldng 14y ago

Well it is different. The aim is not competing standard here but rather unencumbered alternative so to me that XKCD comic isn't very relevant.

aniket_ray 14y ago
On the contrary, is very relevant and this joke is an old one used many times in the codec community. Theora was supposed to be the unencumbered alternative, then it was VP8 and now it's Daala. Unfortunately, all these and even closed/patented codecs have just muddied the waters rather than being the "alternative" that solves it all. Getting adoption of codecs is much harder in today's world than it ever was. The online, mobile and browse worlds are so divided than no company would ever want to give another an advantage by adopting the other companies codec.