5 ms·

I fixed a tractor using John Deere's self-repair service. Farmers aren't sold

• JohnFen 27d ago
  > The agricultural machine manufacturer has a subscription service that lets owners repair their own equipment. Why is barely anybody using it? Because it doesn't address the actual problem.
  • RajT88 27d ago
    The problem the company has is not making enough money. It addresses that problem. The funny thing about that problem is that it is unsolvable.
    • stdatomic 27d ago
      We're seeing "it's never enough" play out right in front of our eyes.
      • kova12 26d ago
        No matter how much the business makes, at some point their stock price comes up to the equilibrium with the rest of market. And since for CEO to get bonus he needs stock to go up, the businesses inevitably start applying dirty tricks at one point or another. That's just a system
        • wolvoleo 26d ago
          That system really needs to go. We'll never solve major challenges like the ever rising income gap, global warming and other environmental concerns and the inevitable cycle of enshittification without it. The problem is that especially America views unrestricted capitalism as some kind of religion beyond reproach. They consider it a fact of life. But it is very hollow, it glorifies profit above all and has no eye for externalities. As they currently control a lot of the world trade we're kinda stuck with that system. Trump voters are so angry because they've been getting the short end of the stick for decades. And he is alienating most of his allies meaning everyone is looking for ways to become less dependent on the petrodollar. Unfortunately they voted for someone who will make it even worse. Instead of 'sticking it to the man' they're giving it to the man.
          • kova12 26d ago
            The system of capitalism works fine with one exception: it doesn't handle negative value. And this is what's being exploited here. You can lose customer's data and it's their problem. Borrow, take risk, lost money, and declare corporate bankruptcy - no personal loss. Destroy environment - say sorry and that's it. That's not free market. When CEOs have their personal assets taken, and kidneys removed to pay for the corporate debts - this is when things start changing
        • mcmcmc 26d ago
          > since for CEO to get bonus he needs stock to go up, the businesses inevitably start applying dirty tricks Is that a system or is it individual greed? Every economic system has its own weak points that can be exploited by bad actors. Capitalism works. What doesn’t work is letting people get away with dirty tricks.
          • throwawayqqq11 26d ago
            Thats why the covert sociopaths extend their dirty trickery on politics and public discourse.
      • x0x7 26d ago
        Then the problem is they don't have a real competitor. I suspect the government aided them in getting in that position because we export those machines, and the US likes the strategic position of being the source of everyone's farm equipment. Hard to break a monopoly when the government considers maintaining it to be a strategic interest.
    • lazide 27d ago
      That’s the companies problem. The farmers problem is the company is squeezing too much money out of them. There is no single solution to both problems.
      • deleted 27d ago
        [deleted]
      • w10-1 26d ago
        > There is no single solution to both problems Competition?
        • pocksuppet 26d ago
          Didn't help the non-spying TV market.
        • lazide 26d ago
          How would that help the company?
          • elictronic 26d ago
            It would cause them to pivot and attempt to be better. Give a mouse a button that pleasures it's brain and it will push it until it dies. That's what the senior leadership at these companies are doing. Bribe government officials to keep the pleasure button going, to the detriment of the company and society. Competition forces companies to stop just pressing the pleasure button and start drinking from the water again.
  • strathmeyer 26d ago
    [dead]
• deleted 27d ago
  [deleted]
• nilamo 27d ago
  Requiring a subscription violates the right to repair. Even for backwater places where the right to repair isn't enshrined in law (like the usa), people still know what the right to repair is, and often refuse to use a paid service what what ought to have been included in the base price.
  • artisinal 26d ago
    > backwater places where the right to repair isn't enshrined in law (like the usa) You just called most of the world a backwater place.
    • nilamo 26d ago
      Then most of the world has some explaining to do.
  • ktallett 26d ago
    The EU are the reason most companies in the US have an actual way to repair anything. US companies in general have not changed a thing based on the US law.
• 27183 27d ago
  Why would you pay extra for some website the company could just take away from you on a whim? I have the bound paper repair manuals for my 1998 Dodge truck, my 1995 Toyota, and my 2002 Kubota tractor. Nobody can arbitrarily take those away. Why can't companies these days just print a shop manual and be done with it?
  • HNSheldonImpost 27d ago
    [dead]
  • loopies 27d ago
    >Why can't companies these days just print a shop manual and be done with it? They would be losing money without overpriced repairs. That's why they lobby so hard against right to repair. Even with some kind of right to repair it still seems they're trying to keep you hooked on their resources. But as you said, service manual + schematics would be great for some people. But companies will fight tooth and nail against it. They lose control over obsoleting older products.
    • Eisenstein 27d ago
      How did you come to the conclusion that they would lose money without repairs? I can't find any specific breakdown of their revenues for that segment.
      • AngryData 26d ago
        The company wouldn't lose money, but the c-suite might miss bonuses and investors their dividends and inflated stock prices.
  • micromacrofoot 27d ago
    they want to lock you in to oem parts because otherwise people might use their tractor for 30 years before buying a new one same reason car dealerships want you to only go to them for maintenance
• Aboutplants 27d ago
  A subscription for the right to repair your own machine seems completely insane to me. How is this a thing that is allowed?
  • werdnapk 27d ago
    A lot of vehicle manufacturers don't even give you access to their repair/diagnostic software even if you want to pay. Tesla for example lets you pay to access their diagnostic software, so why is John Deere the bad guy here?
    • jchw 27d ago
      Oh that's simple. Both Tesla and John Deere are bad guys. And yes. I am happy to expand that list to literally every other manufacturer you have in mind. They are all bad guys too. If manufacturers were altruistic good guys, they would need no regulation.
      • arrowsmith 27d ago
        If all manufacturers except one were altruistic good guys, the one malevolent bad guy would undercut the altruists and drive them out of business. Regulation is the solution to this prisoner’s dilemma.
        • phyzix5761 27d ago
          Heavy regulations are the reason why we have the John Deere semi monopoly. The regulatory entry cost is in the millions for any new player to enter the market so no one wants to compete and provide better service.
          • Eisenstein 27d ago
            So are for some regulations but not others. I think that is most people's stance. It's more constructive if we talk about which specific ones.
• Simulacra 27d ago
  This article seems a little condescending. They are neither a mechanic nor a farmer, as they say, and from there it just sort of goes off the rails.
• alpaca128 27d ago
  The term "Self-Repair Service" already sounds so wrong.
• AShyFig 27d ago
  I've always been a bit confused about the right to repair debate, especially as it concerns John Deere equipment. I don't own any "new" John Deere products, but I do have a few pieces circa ~2010. Perhaps my experience is out of date. Here's how it's always worked for me: 1. A code comes up on the computer. 2. A. The problem is self evident. Or; 2. B. I search online and find the problem. Or; 2. C. I search online and find the diagnostics manual, which I use to find the problem. Then I have diagnostics manual pdf forever, and can use this in the future. 3. A. I search online and find the parts diagram. Or; 3. B. I search my dealers website and find the parts diagram. 4. I order the part. 5. I install the part. Has something changed with newer equipment that prevents farmers from doing this?
  • codenesium 27d ago
    The parts have to be unlocked with like a DRM system to work.
  • bri3d 27d ago
    Newer Deere equipment has a lot of components that have to be adapted using DSA - turbo actuators, various hydraulic sensors, various suspension leveling sensors, fuel injectors, interior displays, and anything SCR related are the big ones. Basically, any sensor that needs a calibration step or triggers an emissions code, or a few intentionally vehicle locked modules (ECM).
    • AShyFig 27d ago
      Interesting. I just finished with a thorny hydraulics problem on a 9870 Combine. It turned out to be a faulty sensor. Part of my troubleshooting involved buying a new sensor, and swapping out each sensor in the system one by one with the new unit until I was sure they were all working correctly. No calibration needed. When i do need to calibrate a system i can do it all from the onboard computer. What a systemic downgrade in capabilities.
      • bri3d 26d ago
        Yeah, that’s a good way to summarize what people are mad about; they basically moved all of the calibration from onboard to offboard diagnostics, and then thwarted most efforts to access the offboard diagnostics. Automotive is similar and I’m a bit worried for EVs; for ICE autos there’s enough emissions related regulation that some diagnostics and manuals are accessible, but for EVs there’s nothing much stopping a Deere style complete lockdown.
• cyanydeez 27d ago
  this, but for your entire business, brought to you by Anthropic and OpenAI.
• fwlr 27d ago
  A more accurate title would be “Farmers Aren’t Bought”, as in “bought by John Deere”, like this author is.
• pedrorissato 27d ago
  Thank you John Deere... I just miss the "sponsored" next to the article title.
• mindslight 27d ago
  > I’m not a mechanic or a farmer So the author is looking at one third of the problem (from the perspective of an IT worker), in a comfortable stage-managed experience put on by Deere themselves. A sensor with a disconnected cable - a five minute visual inspection would have also diagnosed the problem! I'm quite comfortable with computers. And yet when working on my own vehicles, anything that mentions "use the manufacturer software" is avoided unless it's impossible not to. For example my experience using Honda HDS: 1. Spend hours installing Windows in a VM, HDS software from dodgy forums (to avoid the even dodgier "cloud" offering), running an ethernet cable 75 feet outside to where I was working - when my goal was to have my hands dirty fixing the car. 2. Massively slow scan times. We're talking 20 minutes sitting there initializing its understanding of the bus by probing every device every time the software starts up. The software starts up a lot because every time it hits some unexpected condition it needs to be restarted. Every time you choose a different option to check something about another subsystem, the software needs to be restarted. Every time you need to check if you've made a permanent or temporary change, it needs to be restarted. Every time you actually get your hands dirty and make some change on the car, it needs to be restarted. And so on. Companies view these tools as pure cost centers, making it so embedded developers DGAF about any kind of robustness or polish. 3. No actual description of what can be set, or theories of operation of any hardware device. The best you get is references from procedures in service manuals designed to be blindly followed, and the corresponding button in the software that runs some black box procedure. 4. Along with that, the chance of touching a lot of things you don't really want to be touching! HDS made me reenter the VIN number every time it started up (which remember, is often), and I think this was actually writing the VIN number somewhere! I entered it wrong once and it appeared that I had actually changed something. Now obviously Deere is not Honda, but I don't see a reason to expect this would be any better. And of course this is not even touching: > Prices start at an annual cost of $195 per individual machine All this overhead adds up when you're working on one or two vehicles in a personal-bespoke capacity. I'm never going to reach for that software again unless I absolutely have to, even though I know in theory it can tell me a lot in one central place. I'd rather simply model a vehicle's computers as black boxes. I'm sure if you're a Honda tech you develop a model of how the software works, what steps of the procedures to batch and when to pause and check things over, etc. But from an individual perspective where I've got one car to fix rather than one every day? It's utter trash. Adding digital control networks to vehicles increases their inherent complexity. This is unavoidable, similar to adding any new system (eg ABS, 4WD, emissions controls themselves, etc). I think mechanics could respect that, if it weren't bundled with a whole bunch of unnecessary/accidental complexity including top-down surveillance/control. Knowing a thing or two about technology and engineering, what would I actually expect? 1. PDF documentation with thorough bus diagrams. For every node on the bus, documentation from its manufacturer - its theory of operation, the settings it has, the messages it reads from and reports to the bus, additional message/register definitions for what can be read by diagnostic tools. Everything that you'd get if these were DIP switches and LEDs rather than CAN messages. 2. Machine-readable descriptions of CAN PDUs published by the manufacturer themselves. All the message/register/etc definitions documented in the above files, in a well-defined format ready for use by third party tooling. 3. Third party libre software with the usual `make && make install` install path (ie easily incorporated into every operating environment) that uses those definitions to display bus messages in symbolic form, as well as craft new messages to tickle device functionality. I think that about covers it - there isn't actually much here, it just needs to be documented! I know interacting with digital vehicle networks would still be frustrating for many, but people would eventually get over it and even embrace it - it should be more convenient to have the computers display what they're reading rather than having to work around them. Checking the computers first would become standard procedure if the tooling weren't so infuriating. (For more context my own tractor is a Kubota with HP under the Tier IV threshold. I earnestly wish it did have a DPF - less shit to breathe in and less black crap coating my loader. But not at the cost of dealing with the current "state of the art" computer controls! I've also heard horror stories about long term Deere parts availability)
• 0utcast 26d ago
  You shouldn't need to subscribe to a monthly or yearly payment to fucken repair shit.
• calmbonsai 26d ago
  WJW, what a blatant John Deere PR piece. Even by modern WIRED's low standards of journalism, Boone Ashworth has managed to be subterranean.
• fitsumbelay 26d ago
  I read a post sometime in the last 6 months about the hot business in Saskatchewan or Manitoba selling older, completely unconnected John Deere tractors because farmers found the subscription based service for connected ones to be expensive and unhelpful. Basically a net loss. This wired post seems to be payola I mean a direct rebuttal to that post as well as the behavioral wave because it's probably impacting bottom lines
  • markdown 26d ago
    The worlds most popular tractor brand (Mahindra) doesn't even crack the top 5 in the US. If American farmers wan't the most repairable tractor, they should just buy the one that is used in poorer, less-connected regions of the world. Those are built for durability and repairability.
    • boatloof 26d ago
      Mahindra's line up tops out at 71 horsepower. Americans use 400-800 horsepower row croppers towing 36 row planters.
      • anakaine 26d ago
        Some farm, typically agriculture. Your average cattle, sheep, or other livestock farmer will not be running a 400+ HP tractor in most cases. 50-110 hp is common for general property use such as clearing, slashing, loading, material moving. In these cases a Mahondra, or any number of others is ideal. You can get John Deere in the same size, but would be mad to do so with the repairability issues and higher cost.
        • parineum 26d ago
          > Your average cattle, sheep, or other livestock farmer is a very different person in different countries. The US has large scale agriculture and use large scale equipment.
          • 26d ago
• AngryData 26d ago
  $200 per machine per year. You use to just buy the manual and you had it forever. Farms sit on 1-2% profit margins on average but with a 30% swing in potential yield. They don't like subscription services because their yearly income is unreliable at best and they don't have any margin to waste on bs they might not use.
  • laughing_man 26d ago
    For a large commercial operation, $200/year is nothing, but it's enough to hurt the smaller guys.
    • noisy_boy 26d ago
      $200/year, now.
      • laughing_man 26d ago
        To put this in perspective, a large John Deere tractor with a corn header costs in the neighborhood of $1.25 million.
        • laughing_man 26d ago
          Eh... I was thinking of harvesters, not tractors.
          • noefingway 25d ago
            A buddy of mine just bought 2 John Deere 8R tractors, he says he got a deal at $1.6 mil. $900k for the tracked machine and $700K for the wheeled. His combines are close to $1mil when you add in the grain heads.
  • artisinal 26d ago
    Where I am from most farmers are millionaires. They are all corporations. 200 per machine per year is nothing to them.
• SA9G 26d ago
  My Subaru needs an oil change every 6 months... it takes a few minutes. It does NOT remind me and I don't have to reset a computer. Life is simple, life is good. My more $$$ German car needs a service once a year. It reminds me. The actual oil change is easy, but THEN I have to reset the computer!! Not so easy. That needs special software. I bought a pirated package from China. They need a subscription too. Otherwise, I must take it to an "authorized" garage... more $$$. And all of this before there are actual problems to fix... When you pay $$ for a big machine, you SHOULD get everything you need to keep it operational, indefinitely. No separate software packages, no subscriptions, etc. Maybe you need to download something on your tablet/laptop and buy a cable... but that should be it. That would be the law if I was the emperor! (No no no, I don't want to be elected president, stupid job. I said Emperor dammit.)
• aussieguy1234 26d ago
  Charging a subscription to be able to repair equipment you own is obscene. No way in hell would I ever purchase any equipment from a provider that does this.
• Trace88 26d ago
  The subscription can clear diagnostic locks, but farmers still need independent access to parts, manuals, and durable licenses before the software feels like ownership.
• mathfailure 26d ago
  First 2 links give "You’ve read your last free article." The last link says domain not resolved. Do better.