17 ms·

30 days with Windows Phone 8 — Perspective from an admitted iOS addict

105 points by petrel 14y ago

Yhippa 14y ago
I had an HTC Arrive running Windows Phone 7.5 which I loved except for one thing: the lack of apps. The OP mentions this too. I wonder if they'll be able to wait this problem out like they did with the Xbox?
rogerbinns 14y ago
One factor I also look at is what happens when you want to write some code on your computer and put it on your device (it does say "Hacker" at the top left). Only Android scores well in this respect and it looks like none of the competition really cares.
- jsolson 14y ago
  To be fair, many of the folks on this site probably don't much care either. If you've got an Apple developer license, you can put rather a lot on your phone that Apple wouldn't let through the store. ... and of course, if you Jailbreak your phone you can put anything you damn well please on there.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > many of the folks on this site probably don't much care either. Because most of the people on this site aren't actually hackers, they're businessmen who use technology to make money. The "hacker" label is just used to appear hip.
    - lbotos 14y ago
      I don't know if it's selection bias at work but I've always felt that this community had a large group of influential and actual hackers. From low level stuff to language maintainers to people who worked on space shuttles. If anything, the fact that I rub e-elbows with these folks is a great feeling. In the company of giants, if you will.
      - marshray 14y ago
        Agree. There's a really special mix on this board that makes it what it is. I've seen quite a few legit hackers posting here, for many definitions of 'hacker'.
        bcbrown 14y ago
        "quite a few hackers" != "most people are hackers"
        marshray 14y ago
        Replying to this community had a large group of influential and actual hackers.
    - jsolson 14y ago
      That may well be, but you can't dismiss someone as "not a hacker" simply because they make a different OS choice than you might. Even hackers have priorities. I'm definitely not a businessman. I'm a rank-and-file engineer for Amazon, and part of the reason I stick with that is that it gives me spare time to hack on random shit or learn some random math. I still use (and develop for) iOS for two reasons. First, when I'm not hacking I think it's a nicer OS than the competition. Second, when I am hacking on things, I think it's a nicer OS to develop for. As a hacker I can call all the private APIs I like, run in the background, fork of child processes, and really just generally make a mess of things. Oh, and I don't have to do any of it in Java (which after a day of work is a welcome relief).
      - w1ntermute 14y ago
        > Even hackers have priorities. I would say that this is incorrectly worded. People have priorities, and those priorities show whether they truly have the hacker spirit or not. > First, when I'm not hacking I think it's a nicer OS than the competition. This already exposes that you are not a hacker. If you were, you would value the increased hackability and customizability that Android gives you, rather than the my-way-or-the-highway approach taken by iOS. The fact that you think iOS is nicer than the competition means that you aren't a hacker (in the original sense of the word). > when I am hacking on things, I think it's a nicer OS to develop for. As a hacker I can call all the private APIs I like, run in the background, fork of child processes, and really just generally make a mess of things. Again, this shows you are not truly a hacker. Part of the hacker ethos is sharing, and iOS restricts how you can share by not allowing those "private" APIs to be used in apps published on the App Store. > I don't have to do any of it in Java (which after a day of work is a welcome relief). This is an issue, but I would consider it a minor one compared to the other, more important problems.
        ryanmolden 14y ago
        Luckily we have people here who can spot "real" hackers and make such pronouncements, smh.
        14y ago
  - wluu 14y ago
    All developers with an MSDN account, have a free 1 yr subscription to both the Windows 8/Windows Phone 8 store to deploy apps. With a Dev account, you can, like with Apple deploy anything you like to your Dev unlocked Windows Phone 8 phone(s).
    - jsolson 14y ago
      Sure. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just don't have experience on that side of the fence.
- abrowne 14y ago
  How about writing code on your phone: https://www.touchdevelop.com/ https://www.touchdevelop.com/ ?
- jasondenizac 14y ago
  I'm not so sure. Granted, I have a .Net past (I currently am a full stack javascript engineer), but I really enjoy the developer experience for Windows Phone - much nicer (IMO) than with Apple and iOS, from a language, ecosystem, and tooling perspective. My Lumia 920 got here today, and the two gripes I had before - lack of 4g and a pitiful browser - have both been nicely addressed.
- pimeys 14y ago
  The biggest question for me is, can you develop to WP8 with Linux, vim, etc? I just have no plans to install Windows (or OSX) to any of my computers and I don't like to work with any other setup than my customized Linux desktop. But still WP8 looks very exciting. But all in all, every phone OS (except maybe Firefox OS) puts me down on this. With iOS it's OSX and Xcode and with Android you're better to use some IDE like Eclipse.
  - rogerbinns 14y ago
    If you do a Linux dev environment then you are pretty much stuck with Android. (BTW I'm an Android developer who uses Linux dev environments). You can compile apps from the command line (ant is supported). There are command line tools to do all the device interoperability (eg accessing filesystem, getting logs, installing apps). However it would be unproductive to not use an IDE especially to manage the source files, their contents and locations, and debugging. Java is also very nitpicky due to static typing and the normal Java API paradigm is to never make decisions and always put layers of indirection in front of things. I joke that about half the code I "write" is actually written by Eclipse as I put in what I want and it then doubles the size putting in all the missing pieces, extra syntax, finding completions etc. Such is life with Java. The layout editing tools etc are quite nice especially being able to see previews. Eclipse sucks but it is the least worst solution and you can make working apps with it. You could use vim but you will create a lot of extra work for yourself. For the iOS work I do I use Xcode. Unbelievably it is slightly less usable than Eclipse (this is not praising Eclipse!). I am constantly astonished at things it does. Presumably eventually Stockholm Syndrome sets in and you train yourself to not do the things that hurt. For a library I am working on that has no gui elements I am actually editing the code on my Linux box using emacs with sshfs access to the files on the mac, and a ssh terminal connection in to build/run/test from the command line. To access the Mac desktop I use Remote Desktop (VNC under the hood). One thing I praise Apple for is that their VNC server implementation is excellent - very snappy especially compared to the dismal Linux experience. Chrome Remote Desktop also works although it sometimes has problems with special keys. I have the Mac sitting in the back of a cupboard with nothing connected except a USB cable that ends up on my desk where I plugin the devices. You can do some things from the command line such as building (xcode-build). I have no idea if you can install apps, get their logs etc using command line tools. If you don't want to write native apps then you can use PhoneGap. It is essentially a web shell (html widget and javascript) with various extra APIs (eg contacts access) and you provide your code as HTML+javascript. There is much debate about pure HTML5 webapps, solutions like PhoneGap, cross platform tools like MonoTouch versus native apps. Non-native approaches tend to be quicker to initially develop and port, but can have some rough edges and take longer to work at the "edges" of functionality. TLDR: I have no clue about developing WP8 apps using Linux dev environment
- cmelbye 14y ago
  The competition doesn't care because people don't care. Seriously. People could not care less. I got a free developer program membership and got my phone unlocked through that, but I've never used it to sideload code onto my phone and never plan on doing that. It's just not something I need to do.
- ch0wn 14y ago
  There are many people claiming that user's are not interested in this kind of stuff. I beg to differ. I find it fascinating how many apps on the Play Store require root permission and even more how many of them are in the Top 10 of their corresponding category.[0][1][2] With about 3.5M installations of Cyanogenmod[3] it still may only be a tiny fraction of the Android ecosystem and the mobile space in general, but it's certainly a large enough absolute number to care about. [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.koushikdutta.rommanager.license&feature=search_result https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.koushikdut... [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.speedsoftware.rootexplorer&feature=top-paid https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.speedsoftw... [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.noshufou.android.su https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.noshufou.a... [3] http://stats.cyanogenmod.com/ http://stats.cyanogenmod.com/
- habosa 14y ago
  I agree, this is what got me hooked on Android in the first place. Now that I understand the Android SDK and have made a few apps, any problem (even something pretty low-level) on my phone can be fixed if I'm willing to take the time to code up a solution.
bhauer 14y ago
I've really enjoyed my Nokia 920 so far. I find myself most interested in the OP's point that Microsoft should offer a flagship Windows phone ala the Google Nexus line. The app situation is meager by comparison to the two big boys in mobile, but I've been able to get by well enough. Like the OP, I really like the default mail client. It's way better in my opinion than the Android client. For one thing, it doesn't Base64 encode everything [1]. I also prefer Bing maps to Google maps. The virtual keyboard is really solid, and the predictive text beats what I've dealt with on my wife's Galaxy Nexus. If you're interested, I wrote up a mini review at my blog a month back [2]. [1] http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=2630 http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=2630 [2] http://tiamat.tsotech.com/lumia-920 http://tiamat.tsotech.com/lumia-920
- jasondenizac 14y ago
  Given Microsoft's relationship with Nokia, doesn't that make the Lumia 920 the defacto flagship Winodws Phone? I agree with the author of the article that I would prefer it to come without all of the carrier garbage, but it's easily removed.
jetti 14y ago
I got a Lumia 822 (Verizon-only offering) and I have mixed feelings about it. I love the Live Tiles but things like IE10 Mobile really frustrate me. There is no Flash support so I can't go to certain sites (like Beatport Sounds). There are sites that don't render properly and overall the text is rather small and I haven't figured out a way to increase the size yet (not sure if it is the smaller screen size to blame or there is just not a way to increase that size). One thing that I have found to be an annoyance is the search button on the bottom of the phone. No matter what it will bring me to the Bing search, which is good unless it is hit by accident. There is an archery game that I enjoy that has you press and drag to aim and quite often I'm brought to the search screen because my finger goes out of the screen area and hits the search icon. My fault? Of course, but it is incredibly frustrating. The other thing I hate is volume control. There are only two. One for in call volume and then one for the ring tone. That seems great, except that the ring tone volume also controls headphone/media volume. If I want my ringtone low then my volume for youtube will be low. If I want to my ringtone to be loud (which I haven't been able to get, even with the volume turned all the way up to 30 out of 30 I can still barely hear it) and so will all my media. I wasn't happy with my previous Android phone (HTC Evo 4G) but at least my volume for media was separate from my volume for ringtone. Overall, I'm happy with it and some of the addons from Nokia are amazing; such as an app that uses augmented reality and shows various attractions (restaurants, gas stations, etc) in the area while you are holding up your camera. It will mark them on your screen as well as tell you how far you are from that location and the ability to get quick reviews. Plus it shows a compass in the upper right which allows you to know which direction it is in. While there are major issues, in my eyes, that need to be fixed, I still think the phone is better than the Android phone I had before and for only $30 with a new plan (due to $20 trade in credit and just Verizon slashing the price) you can't really go wrong.
- shellehs 14y ago
  Flash is the Legent on mobile devices. Even Adobe the builder they have dropped Flash on mobile platform, so let's forget about Flash. Even on my Web browsers, I can't tolerate without Flash Block add-on. And, I think Nokia's phone is good, for in so short time left. They just need time to improve
rlu 14y ago
I think that this article basically his the nail on the head in most respects. I agree with his complaints as well as his thoughts on why it's good. I currently own a WP7 device but am looking to pick up a 920 or 8X in February when I get an upgrade available. In the end I think he really nails it in the last paragraph: overall this is a solid offering that is hindered by lack of apps which is due to a lack of consumers (...which is largely due to a lack of apps?). If more people take the plunge, then the apps will come and this will become a non issue. Time will tell, I guess!
sil3ntmac 14y ago
Have they fixed the back button? I had a wp7 phone for a while and this userflow breaks the back button: 1. Open IE and browse the web a little 2. Press the home button, read your text messages or some bullshit 3. Press the home button again, open IE. Now try and browse back one page in your history (e.g., you're returning to hacker news after reading a story). The physical back button takes you back to the home page. There is no "soft" back button, so I have to pull up my history and use that. Horrible!!!!!! Maybe Android is this way but it seems horrendously stupid to not even give me the option of a soft button.
- kenjackson 14y ago
  It is fixed in WP8 with a new feature called fast app resume. Apps have to opt into it, but it does make the experience much better.
  - paulbeattie 14y ago
    the back button issue in IE10 mobile has still not been solved in WP8. It's one of the first things I noticed is the lack of a back and forward button. The back button definitely does not behave in the manner described unless resumed by holding down the back button and then going into the app but that's just confusing.
- apetrovic 14y ago
  Yes, the back button is broken because it forces the user to think how things work. In your example, if you left IE, instead of starting it again from the home screen you should hold the back button to enter task switcher and jump into running IE instance from there. After that the back button will work ok. Which is counter-intuitive - tapping tile on the start screen should either give you the same experience like jumping in the app from task switcher, or start new application instance.
  - sil3ntmac 14y ago
    THANK YOU! Can't believe I missed the task switcher. Edit: spelling
rcb 14y ago
Last December I purchased an HTC Titan running 7.5 from a Microsoft Store. A couple months later, HTC released the Titan II, and not long after that, Microsoft announced my new phone was incapable of running WP8. I have never experienced such rapid technological obsolescence with any purchase. Six months after purchasing my phone, AT&T still hadn't enabled visual voicemail, and numerous WP fixes (including several security patches) were never made available to my device. I'll blame AT&T for that, as well. I was so disgusted by the experience that I went back to iOS, spending nearly $1300 on two mobile phones over a period of six months. WP is a fantastic operating system, and for many reasons I do prefer it over iOS. What I did not like was the third and fourth tier app ecosystem, AT&T's interference with service upgrades and patches, and how MS sold me hardware when they knew it essentially would be EOLed with their WP8 announcement.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  I'd say HTC and AT&T sold you hardware, not MS.
  - rcb 14y ago
    I have the receipt in hand, and at the very top it says "Microsoft Store." I'd say my purchase was in fact from MS.
    - calciphus 14y ago
      Pretty sure the folks at the MS store that sold you the thing didn't know the WP8 announcement would end support for new features for your device. In fact, I'd bet that very few folks at AT&T or HTC knew. If you expect that level of "every device gets every new feature", you probably will be happier on iOS.
    - sliverstorm 14y ago
      Oh, I didn't realize they did that now. Sorry.
- danieldk 14y ago
  and how MS sold me hardware when they knew it essentially would be EOLed with their WP8 announcement. I thought this too (as a former WP 7.5 owner), but most applications still seem to support WP 7.5, and WP 7.5 phones are still being sold. I get the impression that 7.5/8 will be kept alive for quite a while for low-budget telephones. Which may not be surprising in the end, since WP 7.5 provides a good experience on pretty arcane hardware.
clarky07 14y ago
I also just gave up my iPhone 5 for a week to test the HTC 8x I am using to dev with. I have been very pleasantly surprised with how much I like it. I'm sticking with the iPhone for now, but I really like wp8. I'd put it at a close second just ahead of android. Dev'ing for it has been nice as well. First app is in review as we speak.
- kenjackson 14y ago
  So... What's the app? We need to support or fellow HNers.
  - clarky07 14y ago
    It's a GPS tracking app for skiers (with running and biking skinned versions to come later). Sadly it's still in review with Microsoft, I was hoping it would get released by Christmas. Here are links to the Android and iOS versions: Ski Tracker+ for Android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thirtySouth.SkiTracker https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thirtySout... For iPhone - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ski-tracker-gps-tracking-for/id576398281?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ski-tracker-gps-tracking-for... All iPhone - https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/30-south-llc/id331245760 https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/30-south-llc/id331245760 All Android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=30+South https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=30+South
    - clarky07 14y ago
      Update, Windows app released - http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/ski-tracker/4b7b89a8-1a59-4a67-9ad2-f0278ed77054 http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/ski-tracker/4b7b...
Toshio 14y ago
> The mobile device market is far too large to be constrained to two choices. That's why we need Jolla's Sailfish OS and Samsung's Tizen to start competing for third place already.
- kenshiro_o 14y ago
  I just don't think this is going to happen. Look how late it was before MS considered getting serious in the smartphone game! Now despite all the praise on WP8 and the Nokia devices (HTC as well), they still seem to be making very little headway. The reason why Samsung have fared so well is because they could focus on hardware (copying bits of the IPhone design initially) while Google's Android team polished the software. I don't believe they have what it takes to make a great mobile OS. This is not their forte.
jsz0 14y ago
Every time I've used a WP device I've walked away disappointed. Haven't done an extended test just 10-15 minutes on various devices. If I had to point to any one thing that leaves me disappointed it's probably the excessive amount of scrolling and swiping required. Even on the larger display devices the amount of information I can see without scrolling/swiping is a fraction of what I'm used to from iOS/Android. It leaves me with kind of a stuck-in-the-mud feeling that I'm just doing a lot of extra work to access the same amount of information. The same type of problem pops up with apps in a different way. They tend to be fairly basic and lacking features. I guess this is to be expected for a relatively young platform but it's really difficult to step away from these iOS/Android apps that just have so much more functionality. Between the apps and UI style it almost just feels to me more like a glorified feature phone. People said the same thing about the iPhone but it had some really killer features. To get a real web browser I was happy to give up the unified messages system on my BlackBerry. I can't really find the killer features in WP that would justify the trade-offs. Honestly every interaction I've had with WP so far makes me very happy to return to iOS/Android where all my apps pack tons of information on the screen and have just about every feature I need.
- danieldk 14y ago
  I have used an iPhone for nearly four years. After playing with a Nokia Lumia 710 (WP7) for some weeks, I bought a WP8 last weak, and too be honest, I couldn't be happier. The thing that I really like (besides the Metro interface) compared to iOS is the integration of Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn et al in the People hub. It actually gives me more information density than the iPhone, where I have to switch between various applications to see what happened. If I want to zoom in to specific persons or groups, I just make a tile to get a subset of that information (e.g. I have a 'Family' tile for my parents, brother, etc.). Also, it comes with a lot of functionality out of the box, such as a lightweight versions of Office and OneNote, Skydrive integration, XBox Music Pass support (Spotify with a far larger catalogue), etc. It's true that the number and breadth of applications is relatively small, but the Windows Phone OS is fairly complete, and most applications that I require are available (Whatsapp, Skype, etc.). Between the apps and UI style it almost just feels to me more like a glorified feature phone. To be honest, that's a bit troll-ish, given that WP8 uses the same kernel and user interface as Windows 8 and given the functionality of the pre-installed applications.
sbuk 14y ago
I must admit as an Apple device wielding individual that the Windows Phone UI has always intrigued me. I was put off however by a colleague who at the time of writing is on his 4th Lumina 920. I know that this is anecdotal, but the hassle the guy had getting faulty phones replaced was poor. Nokia weren't interested. Which is why I'll stick with Apple. My own experience of their customer service has been second to none, and ultimately it's a big decider for me. It is a lovely device though, when it works. Having tested Window 8 Desktop with a view to deployment in the enterprise space, all I can say is that as things stand, not a chance. The metaphor just doesn't translate to the desktop.
- cmelbye 14y ago
  As another anecdote: I had to get my 920 replaced, and it couldn't have been easier. I went into an AT&T store that specialized in device support, they looked at it for a few seconds, and immediately ordered a new one with free overnight priority shipping to my home.
spiralpolitik 14y ago
I played with a Lumina 920 when I was in the store a few days ago. It demoed very well and the phone itself was very nice. I was willing to buy one for my collection of smartphones for research and development purposes, however in the UK its currently only available on the high street as an exclusive with EE and the phone is locked to that network. Sad but true. Clearly Microsoft didn't learn from the mistake Palm made as when you aren't the market leader, going with an exclusive carrier deal only prevents people buying into your platform. Apple learned that, and clearly Microsoft feels necessary to mimic even Apple's mistakes before it gets it. I'm sure RIM will make the same mistake when they launch BB10 next month this leading to their demise. All this has happened before and all this will happen again.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  That's Nokia's decision to go with an EE exclusive, not Microsoft's. The other carriers are going to get the Lumia 920 in January. Other Windows Phones are not carrier exclusive, for example HTC's flagship 8x is available on all carriers in the US.
  - spiralpolitik 14y ago
    If it was Nokia's decision then they are even more doomed than I thought.
- cmelbye 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure every major carrier has a one Nokia WP8 phone or another currently.
bhups 14y ago
I currently own an Android phone (Galaxy Nexus). I've always been fascinated by the WP UI. It's a refreshingly new style that allows enough customization while maintaining a consistent look for the OS across devices. I've been telling myself that I want to make the jump when I'm eligible for my next upgrade, using Launcher7 and Launcher8 in the meanwhile to satisfy my Metro craving. With that being said, the one thing that's been keeping me from making the jump is the Google integration that Android gives me. For people like me that are so dependent on Google services, Android's native support for Google Talk, Google Docs, Gmail, Google Calendar (and Tasks), and Google Chrome (since 4.2) has become essential. If there's a way to be able to use these services on Windows Phone, I will almost immediately switch over, as I am very impressed with Redmond's offering, and look forward to seeing how they continue to tell the Windows Phone story.

105 points by petrel 14y ago

I had an HTC Arrive running Windows Phone 7.5 which I loved except for one thing: the lack of apps. The OP mentions this too. I wonder if they'll be able to wait this problem out like they did with the Xbox?

rogerbinns 14y ago

One factor I also look at is what happens when you want to write some code on your computer and put it on your device (it does say "Hacker" at the top left). Only Android scores well in this respect and it looks like none of the competition really cares.

jsolson 14y ago
To be fair, many of the folks on this site probably don't much care either. If you've got an Apple developer license, you can put rather a lot on your phone that Apple wouldn't let through the store. ... and of course, if you Jailbreak your phone you can put anything you damn well please on there.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > many of the folks on this site probably don't much care either. Because most of the people on this site aren't actually hackers, they're businessmen who use technology to make money. The "hacker" label is just used to appear hip.
  - lbotos 14y ago
    I don't know if it's selection bias at work but I've always felt that this community had a large group of influential and actual hackers. From low level stuff to language maintainers to people who worked on space shuttles. If anything, the fact that I rub e-elbows with these folks is a great feeling. In the company of giants, if you will.
    - marshray 14y ago
      Agree. There's a really special mix on this board that makes it what it is. I've seen quite a few legit hackers posting here, for many definitions of 'hacker'.
      - bcbrown 14y ago
        "quite a few hackers" != "most people are hackers"
        marshray 14y ago
        Replying to this community had a large group of influential and actual hackers.
  - jsolson 14y ago
    That may well be, but you can't dismiss someone as "not a hacker" simply because they make a different OS choice than you might. Even hackers have priorities. I'm definitely not a businessman. I'm a rank-and-file engineer for Amazon, and part of the reason I stick with that is that it gives me spare time to hack on random shit or learn some random math. I still use (and develop for) iOS for two reasons. First, when I'm not hacking I think it's a nicer OS than the competition. Second, when I am hacking on things, I think it's a nicer OS to develop for. As a hacker I can call all the private APIs I like, run in the background, fork of child processes, and really just generally make a mess of things. Oh, and I don't have to do any of it in Java (which after a day of work is a welcome relief).
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > Even hackers have priorities. I would say that this is incorrectly worded. People have priorities, and those priorities show whether they truly have the hacker spirit or not. > First, when I'm not hacking I think it's a nicer OS than the competition. This already exposes that you are not a hacker. If you were, you would value the increased hackability and customizability that Android gives you, rather than the my-way-or-the-highway approach taken by iOS. The fact that you think iOS is nicer than the competition means that you aren't a hacker (in the original sense of the word). > when I am hacking on things, I think it's a nicer OS to develop for. As a hacker I can call all the private APIs I like, run in the background, fork of child processes, and really just generally make a mess of things. Again, this shows you are not truly a hacker. Part of the hacker ethos is sharing, and iOS restricts how you can share by not allowing those "private" APIs to be used in apps published on the App Store. > I don't have to do any of it in Java (which after a day of work is a welcome relief). This is an issue, but I would consider it a minor one compared to the other, more important problems.
      - ryanmolden 14y ago
        Luckily we have people here who can spot "real" hackers and make such pronouncements, smh.
        14y ago
- wluu 14y ago
  All developers with an MSDN account, have a free 1 yr subscription to both the Windows 8/Windows Phone 8 store to deploy apps. With a Dev account, you can, like with Apple deploy anything you like to your Dev unlocked Windows Phone 8 phone(s).
  - jsolson 14y ago
    Sure. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I just don't have experience on that side of the fence.
abrowne 14y ago
How about writing code on your phone: https://www.touchdevelop.com/ https://www.touchdevelop.com/ ?
jasondenizac 14y ago
I'm not so sure. Granted, I have a .Net past (I currently am a full stack javascript engineer), but I really enjoy the developer experience for Windows Phone - much nicer (IMO) than with Apple and iOS, from a language, ecosystem, and tooling perspective. My Lumia 920 got here today, and the two gripes I had before - lack of 4g and a pitiful browser - have both been nicely addressed.
pimeys 14y ago
The biggest question for me is, can you develop to WP8 with Linux, vim, etc? I just have no plans to install Windows (or OSX) to any of my computers and I don't like to work with any other setup than my customized Linux desktop. But still WP8 looks very exciting. But all in all, every phone OS (except maybe Firefox OS) puts me down on this. With iOS it's OSX and Xcode and with Android you're better to use some IDE like Eclipse.
- rogerbinns 14y ago
  If you do a Linux dev environment then you are pretty much stuck with Android. (BTW I'm an Android developer who uses Linux dev environments). You can compile apps from the command line (ant is supported). There are command line tools to do all the device interoperability (eg accessing filesystem, getting logs, installing apps). However it would be unproductive to not use an IDE especially to manage the source files, their contents and locations, and debugging. Java is also very nitpicky due to static typing and the normal Java API paradigm is to never make decisions and always put layers of indirection in front of things. I joke that about half the code I "write" is actually written by Eclipse as I put in what I want and it then doubles the size putting in all the missing pieces, extra syntax, finding completions etc. Such is life with Java. The layout editing tools etc are quite nice especially being able to see previews. Eclipse sucks but it is the least worst solution and you can make working apps with it. You could use vim but you will create a lot of extra work for yourself. For the iOS work I do I use Xcode. Unbelievably it is slightly less usable than Eclipse (this is not praising Eclipse!). I am constantly astonished at things it does. Presumably eventually Stockholm Syndrome sets in and you train yourself to not do the things that hurt. For a library I am working on that has no gui elements I am actually editing the code on my Linux box using emacs with sshfs access to the files on the mac, and a ssh terminal connection in to build/run/test from the command line. To access the Mac desktop I use Remote Desktop (VNC under the hood). One thing I praise Apple for is that their VNC server implementation is excellent - very snappy especially compared to the dismal Linux experience. Chrome Remote Desktop also works although it sometimes has problems with special keys. I have the Mac sitting in the back of a cupboard with nothing connected except a USB cable that ends up on my desk where I plugin the devices. You can do some things from the command line such as building (xcode-build). I have no idea if you can install apps, get their logs etc using command line tools. If you don't want to write native apps then you can use PhoneGap. It is essentially a web shell (html widget and javascript) with various extra APIs (eg contacts access) and you provide your code as HTML+javascript. There is much debate about pure HTML5 webapps, solutions like PhoneGap, cross platform tools like MonoTouch versus native apps. Non-native approaches tend to be quicker to initially develop and port, but can have some rough edges and take longer to work at the "edges" of functionality. TLDR: I have no clue about developing WP8 apps using Linux dev environment
cmelbye 14y ago
The competition doesn't care because people don't care. Seriously. People could not care less. I got a free developer program membership and got my phone unlocked through that, but I've never used it to sideload code onto my phone and never plan on doing that. It's just not something I need to do.
ch0wn 14y ago
There are many people claiming that user's are not interested in this kind of stuff. I beg to differ. I find it fascinating how many apps on the Play Store require root permission and even more how many of them are in the Top 10 of their corresponding category.[0][1][2] With about 3.5M installations of Cyanogenmod[3] it still may only be a tiny fraction of the Android ecosystem and the mobile space in general, but it's certainly a large enough absolute number to care about. [0] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.koushikdutta.rommanager.license&feature=search_result https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.koushikdut... [1] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.speedsoftware.rootexplorer&feature=top-paid https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.speedsoftw... [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.noshufou.android.su https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.noshufou.a... [3] http://stats.cyanogenmod.com/ http://stats.cyanogenmod.com/
habosa 14y ago
I agree, this is what got me hooked on Android in the first place. Now that I understand the Android SDK and have made a few apps, any problem (even something pretty low-level) on my phone can be fixed if I'm willing to take the time to code up a solution.

bhauer 14y ago

I've really enjoyed my Nokia 920 so far. I find myself most interested in the OP's point that Microsoft should offer a flagship Windows phone ala the Google Nexus line. The app situation is meager by comparison to the two big boys in mobile, but I've been able to get by well enough. Like the OP, I really like the default mail client. It's way better in my opinion than the Android client. For one thing, it doesn't Base64 encode everything [1]. I also prefer Bing maps to Google maps. The virtual keyboard is really solid, and the predictive text beats what I've dealt with on my wife's Galaxy Nexus. If you're interested, I wrote up a mini review at my blog a month back [2]. [1] http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=2630 http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=2630 [2] http://tiamat.tsotech.com/lumia-920 http://tiamat.tsotech.com/lumia-920

jasondenizac 14y ago
Given Microsoft's relationship with Nokia, doesn't that make the Lumia 920 the defacto flagship Winodws Phone? I agree with the author of the article that I would prefer it to come without all of the carrier garbage, but it's easily removed.

jetti 14y ago

I got a Lumia 822 (Verizon-only offering) and I have mixed feelings about it. I love the Live Tiles but things like IE10 Mobile really frustrate me. There is no Flash support so I can't go to certain sites (like Beatport Sounds). There are sites that don't render properly and overall the text is rather small and I haven't figured out a way to increase the size yet (not sure if it is the smaller screen size to blame or there is just not a way to increase that size). One thing that I have found to be an annoyance is the search button on the bottom of the phone. No matter what it will bring me to the Bing search, which is good unless it is hit by accident. There is an archery game that I enjoy that has you press and drag to aim and quite often I'm brought to the search screen because my finger goes out of the screen area and hits the search icon. My fault? Of course, but it is incredibly frustrating. The other thing I hate is volume control. There are only two. One for in call volume and then one for the ring tone. That seems great, except that the ring tone volume also controls headphone/media volume. If I want my ringtone low then my volume for youtube will be low. If I want to my ringtone to be loud (which I haven't been able to get, even with the volume turned all the way up to 30 out of 30 I can still barely hear it) and so will all my media. I wasn't happy with my previous Android phone (HTC Evo 4G) but at least my volume for media was separate from my volume for ringtone. Overall, I'm happy with it and some of the addons from Nokia are amazing; such as an app that uses augmented reality and shows various attractions (restaurants, gas stations, etc) in the area while you are holding up your camera. It will mark them on your screen as well as tell you how far you are from that location and the ability to get quick reviews. Plus it shows a compass in the upper right which allows you to know which direction it is in. While there are major issues, in my eyes, that need to be fixed, I still think the phone is better than the Android phone I had before and for only $30 with a new plan (due to $20 trade in credit and just Verizon slashing the price) you can't really go wrong.

shellehs 14y ago
Flash is the Legent on mobile devices. Even Adobe the builder they have dropped Flash on mobile platform, so let's forget about Flash. Even on my Web browsers, I can't tolerate without Flash Block add-on. And, I think Nokia's phone is good, for in so short time left. They just need time to improve

rlu 14y ago

I think that this article basically his the nail on the head in most respects. I agree with his complaints as well as his thoughts on why it's good. I currently own a WP7 device but am looking to pick up a 920 or 8X in February when I get an upgrade available. In the end I think he really nails it in the last paragraph: overall this is a solid offering that is hindered by lack of apps which is due to a lack of consumers (...which is largely due to a lack of apps?). If more people take the plunge, then the apps will come and this will become a non issue. Time will tell, I guess!

sil3ntmac 14y ago

Have they fixed the back button? I had a wp7 phone for a while and this userflow breaks the back button: 1. Open IE and browse the web a little 2. Press the home button, read your text messages or some bullshit 3. Press the home button again, open IE. Now try and browse back one page in your history (e.g., you're returning to hacker news after reading a story). The physical back button takes you back to the home page. There is no "soft" back button, so I have to pull up my history and use that. Horrible!!!!!! Maybe Android is this way but it seems horrendously stupid to not even give me the option of a soft button.

kenjackson 14y ago
It is fixed in WP8 with a new feature called fast app resume. Apps have to opt into it, but it does make the experience much better.
- paulbeattie 14y ago
  the back button issue in IE10 mobile has still not been solved in WP8. It's one of the first things I noticed is the lack of a back and forward button. The back button definitely does not behave in the manner described unless resumed by holding down the back button and then going into the app but that's just confusing.
apetrovic 14y ago
Yes, the back button is broken because it forces the user to think how things work. In your example, if you left IE, instead of starting it again from the home screen you should hold the back button to enter task switcher and jump into running IE instance from there. After that the back button will work ok. Which is counter-intuitive - tapping tile on the start screen should either give you the same experience like jumping in the app from task switcher, or start new application instance.
- sil3ntmac 14y ago
  THANK YOU! Can't believe I missed the task switcher. Edit: spelling

rcb 14y ago

Last December I purchased an HTC Titan running 7.5 from a Microsoft Store. A couple months later, HTC released the Titan II, and not long after that, Microsoft announced my new phone was incapable of running WP8. I have never experienced such rapid technological obsolescence with any purchase. Six months after purchasing my phone, AT&T still hadn't enabled visual voicemail, and numerous WP fixes (including several security patches) were never made available to my device. I'll blame AT&T for that, as well. I was so disgusted by the experience that I went back to iOS, spending nearly $1300 on two mobile phones over a period of six months. WP is a fantastic operating system, and for many reasons I do prefer it over iOS. What I did not like was the third and fourth tier app ecosystem, AT&T's interference with service upgrades and patches, and how MS sold me hardware when they knew it essentially would be EOLed with their WP8 announcement.

sliverstorm 14y ago
I'd say HTC and AT&T sold you hardware, not MS.
- rcb 14y ago
  I have the receipt in hand, and at the very top it says "Microsoft Store." I'd say my purchase was in fact from MS.
  - calciphus 14y ago
    Pretty sure the folks at the MS store that sold you the thing didn't know the WP8 announcement would end support for new features for your device. In fact, I'd bet that very few folks at AT&T or HTC knew. If you expect that level of "every device gets every new feature", you probably will be happier on iOS.
  - sliverstorm 14y ago
    Oh, I didn't realize they did that now. Sorry.
danieldk 14y ago
and how MS sold me hardware when they knew it essentially would be EOLed with their WP8 announcement. I thought this too (as a former WP 7.5 owner), but most applications still seem to support WP 7.5, and WP 7.5 phones are still being sold. I get the impression that 7.5/8 will be kept alive for quite a while for low-budget telephones. Which may not be surprising in the end, since WP 7.5 provides a good experience on pretty arcane hardware.

clarky07 14y ago

I also just gave up my iPhone 5 for a week to test the HTC 8x I am using to dev with. I have been very pleasantly surprised with how much I like it. I'm sticking with the iPhone for now, but I really like wp8. I'd put it at a close second just ahead of android. Dev'ing for it has been nice as well. First app is in review as we speak.

kenjackson 14y ago
So... What's the app? We need to support or fellow HNers.
- clarky07 14y ago
  It's a GPS tracking app for skiers (with running and biking skinned versions to come later). Sadly it's still in review with Microsoft, I was hoping it would get released by Christmas. Here are links to the Android and iOS versions: Ski Tracker+ for Android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thirtySouth.SkiTracker https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.thirtySout... For iPhone - https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ski-tracker-gps-tracking-for/id576398281?mt=8 https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ski-tracker-gps-tracking-for... All iPhone - https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/30-south-llc/id331245760 https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/30-south-llc/id331245760 All Android - https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=30+South https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=30+South
  - clarky07 14y ago
    Update, Windows app released - http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/ski-tracker/4b7b89a8-1a59-4a67-9ad2-f0278ed77054 http://www.windowsphone.com/en-us/store/app/ski-tracker/4b7b...

Toshio 14y ago

> The mobile device market is far too large to be constrained to two choices. That's why we need Jolla's Sailfish OS and Samsung's Tizen to start competing for third place already.

kenshiro_o 14y ago
I just don't think this is going to happen. Look how late it was before MS considered getting serious in the smartphone game! Now despite all the praise on WP8 and the Nokia devices (HTC as well), they still seem to be making very little headway. The reason why Samsung have fared so well is because they could focus on hardware (copying bits of the IPhone design initially) while Google's Android team polished the software. I don't believe they have what it takes to make a great mobile OS. This is not their forte.

jsz0 14y ago

Every time I've used a WP device I've walked away disappointed. Haven't done an extended test just 10-15 minutes on various devices. If I had to point to any one thing that leaves me disappointed it's probably the excessive amount of scrolling and swiping required. Even on the larger display devices the amount of information I can see without scrolling/swiping is a fraction of what I'm used to from iOS/Android. It leaves me with kind of a stuck-in-the-mud feeling that I'm just doing a lot of extra work to access the same amount of information. The same type of problem pops up with apps in a different way. They tend to be fairly basic and lacking features. I guess this is to be expected for a relatively young platform but it's really difficult to step away from these iOS/Android apps that just have so much more functionality. Between the apps and UI style it almost just feels to me more like a glorified feature phone. People said the same thing about the iPhone but it had some really killer features. To get a real web browser I was happy to give up the unified messages system on my BlackBerry. I can't really find the killer features in WP that would justify the trade-offs. Honestly every interaction I've had with WP so far makes me very happy to return to iOS/Android where all my apps pack tons of information on the screen and have just about every feature I need.

danieldk 14y ago
I have used an iPhone for nearly four years. After playing with a Nokia Lumia 710 (WP7) for some weeks, I bought a WP8 last weak, and too be honest, I couldn't be happier. The thing that I really like (besides the Metro interface) compared to iOS is the integration of Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn et al in the People hub. It actually gives me more information density than the iPhone, where I have to switch between various applications to see what happened. If I want to zoom in to specific persons or groups, I just make a tile to get a subset of that information (e.g. I have a 'Family' tile for my parents, brother, etc.). Also, it comes with a lot of functionality out of the box, such as a lightweight versions of Office and OneNote, Skydrive integration, XBox Music Pass support (Spotify with a far larger catalogue), etc. It's true that the number and breadth of applications is relatively small, but the Windows Phone OS is fairly complete, and most applications that I require are available (Whatsapp, Skype, etc.). Between the apps and UI style it almost just feels to me more like a glorified feature phone. To be honest, that's a bit troll-ish, given that WP8 uses the same kernel and user interface as Windows 8 and given the functionality of the pre-installed applications.

sbuk 14y ago

I must admit as an Apple device wielding individual that the Windows Phone UI has always intrigued me. I was put off however by a colleague who at the time of writing is on his 4th Lumina 920. I know that this is anecdotal, but the hassle the guy had getting faulty phones replaced was poor. Nokia weren't interested. Which is why I'll stick with Apple. My own experience of their customer service has been second to none, and ultimately it's a big decider for me. It is a lovely device though, when it works. Having tested Window 8 Desktop with a view to deployment in the enterprise space, all I can say is that as things stand, not a chance. The metaphor just doesn't translate to the desktop.

cmelbye 14y ago
As another anecdote: I had to get my 920 replaced, and it couldn't have been easier. I went into an AT&T store that specialized in device support, they looked at it for a few seconds, and immediately ordered a new one with free overnight priority shipping to my home.

spiralpolitik 14y ago

I played with a Lumina 920 when I was in the store a few days ago. It demoed very well and the phone itself was very nice. I was willing to buy one for my collection of smartphones for research and development purposes, however in the UK its currently only available on the high street as an exclusive with EE and the phone is locked to that network. Sad but true. Clearly Microsoft didn't learn from the mistake Palm made as when you aren't the market leader, going with an exclusive carrier deal only prevents people buying into your platform. Apple learned that, and clearly Microsoft feels necessary to mimic even Apple's mistakes before it gets it. I'm sure RIM will make the same mistake when they launch BB10 next month this leading to their demise. All this has happened before and all this will happen again.

recoiledsnake 14y ago
That's Nokia's decision to go with an EE exclusive, not Microsoft's. The other carriers are going to get the Lumia 920 in January. Other Windows Phones are not carrier exclusive, for example HTC's flagship 8x is available on all carriers in the US.
- spiralpolitik 14y ago
  If it was Nokia's decision then they are even more doomed than I thought.
cmelbye 14y ago
I'm pretty sure every major carrier has a one Nokia WP8 phone or another currently.

bhups 14y ago

I currently own an Android phone (Galaxy Nexus). I've always been fascinated by the WP UI. It's a refreshingly new style that allows enough customization while maintaining a consistent look for the OS across devices. I've been telling myself that I want to make the jump when I'm eligible for my next upgrade, using Launcher7 and Launcher8 in the meanwhile to satisfy my Metro craving. With that being said, the one thing that's been keeping me from making the jump is the Google integration that Android gives me. For people like me that are so dependent on Google services, Android's native support for Google Talk, Google Docs, Gmail, Google Calendar (and Tasks), and Google Chrome (since 4.2) has become essential. If there's a way to be able to use these services on Windows Phone, I will almost immediately switch over, as I am very impressed with Redmond's offering, and look forward to seeing how they continue to tell the Windows Phone story.