4 ms·

I remember reading once about how Astrid Lindgren's children's books were supreme exactly because she - contrary to many others - remembers what it is like to b

I remember reading once about how Astrid Lindgren's children's books were supreme exactly because she - contrary to many others - remembers what it is like to be a child. Not just what you did or thought when you were a child - how it felt. The endless curiosity and appreciation for what in an adult's eyes is trivial is really a special thing I hope most people carry throughout their lives. On the other hand, children also understand more than one would normally think, essentially a Moravec's paradox but in relation to adults. "Children heal the soul" - Dostoevsky

317070 25d ago
Overestimate their understanding, underestimate their vocabulary.
- Terr_ 25d ago
  I'm not sure whether to interpret this as a statement about what we currently over/under-estimate, or as command that we should try what feels like over/under-estimation in order to counter our own biases.
  - 317070 25d ago
    No, it was really helpful advice I read somewhere. That when explaining something, always overestimate someones understanding, and underestimate their vocabulary. Edit: apparently it's a vsauce thing. I do think it's right, it helped me a lot in life.
- wizzwizz4 25d ago
  I like Lemony Snicket's approach: he gives (obviously) wrong, but technically correct, definitions for hard words. These definitions are usually hyper-specific, or satirical. Children, who are still very familiar with learning vocabulary from context, can find this much more amusing than adults who have given up on learning new words except via dictionaries. > The word “briskly” here means “quickly, so as to get the Baudelaire children to leave the house.” > “Wipi!” Sunny shrieked, which meant “I’d much prefer gardening to sitting around watching my siblings struggle through law books.”
- imawakegnxoxo 25d ago
  Kids are so much smarter and more capable than adults give them credit for, and it is stunting society as a whole I think infantilisation is a huge part of the reason we're where we are today - kids 100 years ago were working harder jobs than most adults today (not implying child slave labour is a good thing, just making a point) Kids today, though, are given exactly 0 responsibility and treated like babies the whole way through their prime learning years I feel so sorry for the next generation
  - ErroneousBosh 25d ago
    One of the first emails from the school when my small son was in Primary 1 was that they'd been making some pancakes in class and he'd picked up a Big Sharp Knife and began slicing some strawberries to put on them, and this was Very Much Not Allowed! Children should not be touching the Big Sharp Knives! Yeah, did he cut himself? No? Was he holding the knife and the strawberries carefully, so he didn't cut himself? Yes? Want to take a guess as to why? He's five. He knows how to chop vegetables. My parents taught me how to cook from a young age, I am teaching him how to cook from a young age. I'm raising a *man* here, not a perma-infant. Although, between you and me, I think he could stand to use a bit less oregano in his pizza sauce. I'd never criticise his choices, I think he'll figure it out in time.
    - red_admiral 25d ago
      Terry Pratchett: "You can't give her that!' she screamed. 'It's not safe!' IT'S A SWORD, said the Hogfather. THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO BE SAFE. 'She's a child!' shouted Crumley. IT'S EDUCATIONAL. 'What if she cuts herself?' THAT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON"
      - mitxela 24d ago
        Only Death speaks like that in (GNU) Terry Pratchett's books. I assume he is disguised as "the Hogfather" and the other character is unaware even though it's known to the reader. And I assume Death is there because the girl is about to kill herself with the sword.
- ErroneousBosh 25d ago
  "But it's okay if a battery goes on fire daddy, I'll put carbon dioxide on it!" - EBv2.0, aged 3 and a half
  - BLKNSLVR 25d ago
    I think the first time my son said the 'f' word, he got the tone and the body language exactly right for the context in which he used it (a frustrated/resigned "fuck's sake", with roll-eyes and throw-head-back, look up to the sky). He might have been five years old at the time. And back then, I really didn't say it around them very much (out of an attempt to be somewhat responsible). They're absorbing everything. They're scraping the entirety of your personality to build their own.
    - worthless-trash 25d ago
      Tiny language models.
    - OroPla 25d ago
      I never quite understood the obsession with keeping some language away from children that everyone uses themselves. The words are there because they are needed. Walking the euphemism treadmill is a Sisyphus effort.
      - BLKNSLVR 25d ago
        Let them build a decent vocabulary before exposing them to the words that replace all sorts of other words ;) I want them to be clever with how they use language. Or at least have the knowledge to be clever, if they apply themselves.
        OroPla 25d ago
        I heard of a study [1] claiming that people that swear more have a larger vocabulary in general, so your efforts might be counter-intuitive to your goal. Don't see how deprivation of some words leads to the knowledge of other words, either. Maybe if you interject and correct swear word usage by providing other words that would be a better fit. > Taboo word fluency is correlated with general fluency. > Taboo words comprise pejoratives and slurs. > Taboo fluency is correlated with neuroticism and openness. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S038800011400151X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03880...
- laurieg 25d ago
  Learning a second language is a fantastic way to feel many aspects of being a child again. Having to deal with frustration. Understanding a situation but not be able to fully take part. Being able to communicate but only with the blunt instrument of the words you know.
  - veltas 25d ago
    That's how I feel right now talking in my only language of English.
    - wartywhoa23 25d ago
      Yep. So many people have been drifting away into some kind of parallel reality where language is seemingly the same, yet transmits no meaning between our diverging realities.
      - mitxela 24d ago
        Language that looks superficially normal but transmits no meaning is called "generative AI output"
        wartywhoa23 24d ago
        That too, but I originally meant literal human output, as in loss of ability to convey meaning with words in communication between people, no AI involved.
Markoff 25d ago
I like some of her books, but I am quite annoyed with kids most of the time coming from poor families with missing father/mother, it's like she couldn't write a book without some tragedy, of course the most famous Emil of Lönneberga and The Six Bullerby Children are from normal families (there is probably reason why these are the most famous and beloved), but already Pippi Longstocking is pretty F-ed up and don't get me started on The Brothers Lionheart, which is glorifying suicide and should be really banned for kids under 15, certainly not appropriate for 9yo, though I read it to my younger kid with appropriate commentary.
- vintermann 25d ago
  Remember that Astrid Lindgren was born in 1907, got pregnant at 18 and had to give up her son to a foster home for the first few years. She grew up in a completely different world, and it's no coincidence that a lot of her stories are basically about consoling traumatized children.
  - Terr_ 25d ago
    > She grew up in a completely different world, Also, back then in 1925 infant mortality was probably ~10x worse [0], which adds to how we (today) might underestimate the prevalence of parent-child traumas. [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?locations=SE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?location...
    - rapsey 25d ago
      I don't know why you are down voted. Death was so much more present in kids lives back then. Death from diseases and injuries so common. Kids having dead siblings entirely normal.
      - le-mark 25d ago
        The writing of Charles Dickens support this thesis strongly!
  - 25d ago
Claudus 25d ago
Dear little Krumalura, I don't want to grow up, never ever.
zingababba 25d ago
Speaking of Dostoevsky Prince Myshkin in 'The Idiot' is a fine portrayal of this archetype. In fact I believe at one point it is mentioned that most adults dislike him while children are drawn to him or something to that effect.

317070 25d ago

Overestimate their understanding, underestimate their vocabulary.

Terr_ 25d ago
I'm not sure whether to interpret this as a statement about what we currently over/under-estimate, or as command that we should try what feels like over/under-estimation in order to counter our own biases.
- 317070 25d ago
  No, it was really helpful advice I read somewhere. That when explaining something, always overestimate someones understanding, and underestimate their vocabulary. Edit: apparently it's a vsauce thing. I do think it's right, it helped me a lot in life.
wizzwizz4 25d ago
I like Lemony Snicket's approach: he gives (obviously) wrong, but technically correct, definitions for hard words. These definitions are usually hyper-specific, or satirical. Children, who are still very familiar with learning vocabulary from context, can find this much more amusing than adults who have given up on learning new words except via dictionaries. > The word “briskly” here means “quickly, so as to get the Baudelaire children to leave the house.” > “Wipi!” Sunny shrieked, which meant “I’d much prefer gardening to sitting around watching my siblings struggle through law books.”
imawakegnxoxo 25d ago
Kids are so much smarter and more capable than adults give them credit for, and it is stunting society as a whole I think infantilisation is a huge part of the reason we're where we are today - kids 100 years ago were working harder jobs than most adults today (not implying child slave labour is a good thing, just making a point) Kids today, though, are given exactly 0 responsibility and treated like babies the whole way through their prime learning years I feel so sorry for the next generation
- ErroneousBosh 25d ago
  One of the first emails from the school when my small son was in Primary 1 was that they'd been making some pancakes in class and he'd picked up a Big Sharp Knife and began slicing some strawberries to put on them, and this was Very Much Not Allowed! Children should not be touching the Big Sharp Knives! Yeah, did he cut himself? No? Was he holding the knife and the strawberries carefully, so he didn't cut himself? Yes? Want to take a guess as to why? He's five. He knows how to chop vegetables. My parents taught me how to cook from a young age, I am teaching him how to cook from a young age. I'm raising a *man* here, not a perma-infant. Although, between you and me, I think he could stand to use a bit less oregano in his pizza sauce. I'd never criticise his choices, I think he'll figure it out in time.
  - red_admiral 25d ago
    Terry Pratchett: "You can't give her that!' she screamed. 'It's not safe!' IT'S A SWORD, said the Hogfather. THEY'RE NOT MEANT TO BE SAFE. 'She's a child!' shouted Crumley. IT'S EDUCATIONAL. 'What if she cuts herself?' THAT WILL BE AN IMPORTANT LESSON"
    - mitxela 24d ago
      Only Death speaks like that in (GNU) Terry Pratchett's books. I assume he is disguised as "the Hogfather" and the other character is unaware even though it's known to the reader. And I assume Death is there because the girl is about to kill herself with the sword.
ErroneousBosh 25d ago
"But it's okay if a battery goes on fire daddy, I'll put carbon dioxide on it!" - EBv2.0, aged 3 and a half
- BLKNSLVR 25d ago
  I think the first time my son said the 'f' word, he got the tone and the body language exactly right for the context in which he used it (a frustrated/resigned "fuck's sake", with roll-eyes and throw-head-back, look up to the sky). He might have been five years old at the time. And back then, I really didn't say it around them very much (out of an attempt to be somewhat responsible). They're absorbing everything. They're scraping the entirety of your personality to build their own.
  - worthless-trash 25d ago
    Tiny language models.
  - OroPla 25d ago
    I never quite understood the obsession with keeping some language away from children that everyone uses themselves. The words are there because they are needed. Walking the euphemism treadmill is a Sisyphus effort.
    - BLKNSLVR 25d ago
      Let them build a decent vocabulary before exposing them to the words that replace all sorts of other words ;) I want them to be clever with how they use language. Or at least have the knowledge to be clever, if they apply themselves.
      - OroPla 25d ago
        I heard of a study [1] claiming that people that swear more have a larger vocabulary in general, so your efforts might be counter-intuitive to your goal. Don't see how deprivation of some words leads to the knowledge of other words, either. Maybe if you interject and correct swear word usage by providing other words that would be a better fit. > Taboo word fluency is correlated with general fluency. > Taboo words comprise pejoratives and slurs. > Taboo fluency is correlated with neuroticism and openness. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S038800011400151X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03880...
laurieg 25d ago
Learning a second language is a fantastic way to feel many aspects of being a child again. Having to deal with frustration. Understanding a situation but not be able to fully take part. Being able to communicate but only with the blunt instrument of the words you know.
- veltas 25d ago
  That's how I feel right now talking in my only language of English.
  - wartywhoa23 25d ago
    Yep. So many people have been drifting away into some kind of parallel reality where language is seemingly the same, yet transmits no meaning between our diverging realities.
    - mitxela 24d ago
      Language that looks superficially normal but transmits no meaning is called "generative AI output"
      - wartywhoa23 24d ago
        That too, but I originally meant literal human output, as in loss of ability to convey meaning with words in communication between people, no AI involved.

Markoff 25d ago

I like some of her books, but I am quite annoyed with kids most of the time coming from poor families with missing father/mother, it's like she couldn't write a book without some tragedy, of course the most famous Emil of Lönneberga and The Six Bullerby Children are from normal families (there is probably reason why these are the most famous and beloved), but already Pippi Longstocking is pretty F-ed up and don't get me started on The Brothers Lionheart, which is glorifying suicide and should be really banned for kids under 15, certainly not appropriate for 9yo, though I read it to my younger kid with appropriate commentary.

vintermann 25d ago
Remember that Astrid Lindgren was born in 1907, got pregnant at 18 and had to give up her son to a foster home for the first few years. She grew up in a completely different world, and it's no coincidence that a lot of her stories are basically about consoling traumatized children.
- Terr_ 25d ago
  > She grew up in a completely different world, Also, back then in 1925 infant mortality was probably ~10x worse [0], which adds to how we (today) might underestimate the prevalence of parent-child traumas. [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?locations=SE https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.IMRT.IN?location...
  - rapsey 25d ago
    I don't know why you are down voted. Death was so much more present in kids lives back then. Death from diseases and injuries so common. Kids having dead siblings entirely normal.
    - le-mark 25d ago
      The writing of Charles Dickens support this thesis strongly!
- 25d ago

Claudus 25d ago

Dear little Krumalura, I don't want to grow up, never ever.

zingababba 25d ago

Speaking of Dostoevsky Prince Myshkin in 'The Idiot' is a fine portrayal of this archetype. In fact I believe at one point it is mentioned that most adults dislike him while children are drawn to him or something to that effect.