8 ms·

FWIW, editing OpenStreetMap is very straightforward*, and with that, you're actually contributing to an open data set that everyone is allowed to use, rather th

by Vinnl 24d ago

FWIW, editing OpenStreetMap is very straightforward*, and with that, you're actually contributing to an open data set that everyone is allowed to use, rather than just propping up Google. (To be fair, on a laptop - I'm sure Google Maps is more straightforward on a phone. But for someone already prepared to invest this much effort, editing OSM should be well within range. And if you just enjoy contributing to maps, for a phone I can highly recommend https://streetcomplete.app https://streetcomplete.app.)

spwa4 24d ago
Wasn't making street plans from satellite pictures ruled transformative? So if you get an AI to make street plans from Google maps, satellite layer, you're not violating copyright are you?
- deleted 24d ago
  [deleted]
- mtmail 24d ago
  Bing Maps allows the OpenStreetMap community to trace from aerial_imagery https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps#Aerial_imagery https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps#Aerial_imagery Google doesn't. How much a tool helps somebody to draw the actual roads varies by editor software used, some have plugins. Using AI in bulk isn't allowed afaik.
- LoganDark 24d ago
  If you obtain the satellite images directly from Google Maps, you can still have problems because you might not have permission to use the data. That's not copyright though.
  - Chris2048 24d ago
    > you might not have permission to use the data Isn't it fair use, like training data?
    - matkoniecz 24d ago
      OpenStreetMap commmunity, for variety of reasons, avoids questionable or very novel approaches to intellectual property. I guess that some may be calling it overdoing in direction opposite than Internet Archive did. It is at least partially caused by fact that OpenStreetMap Foundation budget is laughably small.
      - leni536 24d ago
        Another reason might be that modifications of the map are entangled and can be hard to revert in case of a dispute. It's much easier for the Internet Archive to just drop snapshots of websites/pages (and they do so, AFAIK).
    - nostrademons 24d ago
      I think the issue is the ToU violation, not copyright.
      - spwa4 24d ago
        Don't terms of use depend entirely on copyright to work? Without copyright ... why would you need to agree to terms of use to use the software/site/data? And doesn't that mean that terms of use can never impose restrictions stricter than copyright?
        nostrademons 24d ago
        No. ToU is a part of contract law. Basically the website is providing a service for you. In exchange for your use of that service, you agree to be bound by the terms. This implicitly creates a contract between you and the website, with the terms laid out by the ToU. This sort of implicit contract is legally controversial - normally for a contract to be valid there needs to be affirmative signatures from both parties, as well as consideration (money) exchanged. In the U.S. at least, "click-wrap" (where you must affirmatively click "I agree") and "scroll-wrap" (where you must scroll through the whole ToU before the product unlocks) ToUs are generally considered enforceable, but "sign-in wrap" (where creating an account binds you) and "browse-wrap" (where there's a ToU link) are very dubiously enforceable. But we're talking about Google here, and they make you click through the ToU and say you agree whenever you unbox a new Android device or create a Google account, and then have it apply to all usage of Google services. Enforcement can be quite challenging because typically if you provide a service over the Internet you don't have any idea who is using it beyond their IP address and any registration data they provide, but this also means that when companies do have a known violator and can show significant monetary damages, their legal departments come down like a ton of bricks.
- CamperBob2 24d ago
  I would worry about trap streets. A collection of facts isn't copyrightable, and arguably the network of existing streets shown in satellite photos falls into that category. But if I were the photo licensor, I'd be tempted to Photoshop in a few fictional features that could be protected as "creative expression," or some such BS.
  - gowld 23d ago
    Trap steets (fake data with no creative expression) are not copyrightable un USA, but specific art for drawing maps is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street
cube00 24d ago
This is what I do now, got jack of Google throwing my contributions back in my face. They also only email if your contribution is successful. If it's declined you'll only know by looking inside Google Maps. Contributing to an open dataset also feels really good.
nhecker 24d ago
Between the streetcomplete and everydoor apps, it is very very easy to do almost any OSM map editing on a mobile. Osmand (the offline map & nav app) is also useful for some edits when I don't want to leave that app. Oh, for the simpler days when not everything required an app.
- RobRivera 24d ago
  You would enjoy the Always Sunny episode 'mental health day'
pietervdvn 24d ago
Or you can use https://mapcomplete.org/charging_stations.html https://mapcomplete.org/charging_stations.html to add charging stations as well; data goes to OpenStreetMap too. Disclaimer: I make this
mcpherrinm 23d ago
I think "very straightforward" is vastly overselling how easy editing OSM is. It feels like editing a database, without any affordances for easily making common updates. If the hours of a store are wrong on Google Maps, I just upload a photo of their store, and it'll be corrected quickly. On OSM, well, most things are out of date. There's no simple 'update this business' flow, just a database editor. And a map that feels like I could break anything by clicking in the wrong spot. OSM is a cool project, but it isn't straightforward. And unlike Google and Apple maps, most of the businesses in my area are years out of date, so I can't effectively use it to find information either, so I just don't have any reason to interact with it. Plus no aerial/satellite/streetview imagery, which I understand is probably infeasible, but ultimately it just means OSM is a niche product that won't replace Google. So yeah, I'm propping up Google, but I get way more benefit out of it than having an open data set used to power Amazon's delivery driver routes or whatever.
- iririririr 23d ago
  skill issue. there's at least three user friendly and better than google maps UX clients. but i guess they didn't bundle with your pixel nor have all the darkpatterns you got used to.
  - mitxela 23d ago
    What are they?
    - footy 23d ago
      Everydoor, Streetcomplete, and a secret third option
      - iririririr 18d ago
        did you forget their own editor which is awesome and have overlay with fresh satelite donated by Microsoft?
    - yonatan8070 23d ago
LelouBil 23d ago
I started contributing a couple of months ago, and I am amazed by the fact that there's no vandalizing going on near where I live. There are few contributions around there, mostly automated imports from like 2012.

by Vinnl 24d ago

spwa4 24d ago

Wasn't making street plans from satellite pictures ruled transformative? So if you get an AI to make street plans from Google maps, satellite layer, you're not violating copyright are you?

deleted 24d ago
[deleted]
mtmail 24d ago
Bing Maps allows the OpenStreetMap community to trace from aerial_imagery https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps#Aerial_imagery https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bing_Maps#Aerial_imagery Google doesn't. How much a tool helps somebody to draw the actual roads varies by editor software used, some have plugins. Using AI in bulk isn't allowed afaik.
LoganDark 24d ago
If you obtain the satellite images directly from Google Maps, you can still have problems because you might not have permission to use the data. That's not copyright though.
- Chris2048 24d ago
  > you might not have permission to use the data Isn't it fair use, like training data?
  - matkoniecz 24d ago
    OpenStreetMap commmunity, for variety of reasons, avoids questionable or very novel approaches to intellectual property. I guess that some may be calling it overdoing in direction opposite than Internet Archive did. It is at least partially caused by fact that OpenStreetMap Foundation budget is laughably small.
    - leni536 24d ago
      Another reason might be that modifications of the map are entangled and can be hard to revert in case of a dispute. It's much easier for the Internet Archive to just drop snapshots of websites/pages (and they do so, AFAIK).
  - nostrademons 24d ago
    I think the issue is the ToU violation, not copyright.
    - spwa4 24d ago
      Don't terms of use depend entirely on copyright to work? Without copyright ... why would you need to agree to terms of use to use the software/site/data? And doesn't that mean that terms of use can never impose restrictions stricter than copyright?
      - nostrademons 24d ago
        No. ToU is a part of contract law. Basically the website is providing a service for you. In exchange for your use of that service, you agree to be bound by the terms. This implicitly creates a contract between you and the website, with the terms laid out by the ToU. This sort of implicit contract is legally controversial - normally for a contract to be valid there needs to be affirmative signatures from both parties, as well as consideration (money) exchanged. In the U.S. at least, "click-wrap" (where you must affirmatively click "I agree") and "scroll-wrap" (where you must scroll through the whole ToU before the product unlocks) ToUs are generally considered enforceable, but "sign-in wrap" (where creating an account binds you) and "browse-wrap" (where there's a ToU link) are very dubiously enforceable. But we're talking about Google here, and they make you click through the ToU and say you agree whenever you unbox a new Android device or create a Google account, and then have it apply to all usage of Google services. Enforcement can be quite challenging because typically if you provide a service over the Internet you don't have any idea who is using it beyond their IP address and any registration data they provide, but this also means that when companies do have a known violator and can show significant monetary damages, their legal departments come down like a ton of bricks.
CamperBob2 24d ago
I would worry about trap streets. A collection of facts isn't copyrightable, and arguably the network of existing streets shown in satellite photos falls into that category. But if I were the photo licensor, I'd be tempted to Photoshop in a few fictional features that could be protected as "creative expression," or some such BS.
- gowld 23d ago
  Trap steets (fake data with no creative expression) are not copyrightable un USA, but specific art for drawing maps is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap_street

cube00 24d ago

This is what I do now, got jack of Google throwing my contributions back in my face. They also only email if your contribution is successful. If it's declined you'll only know by looking inside Google Maps. Contributing to an open dataset also feels really good.

nhecker 24d ago

Between the streetcomplete and everydoor apps, it is very very easy to do almost any OSM map editing on a mobile. Osmand (the offline map & nav app) is also useful for some edits when I don't want to leave that app. Oh, for the simpler days when not everything required an app.

RobRivera 24d ago
You would enjoy the Always Sunny episode 'mental health day'

pietervdvn 24d ago

Or you can use https://mapcomplete.org/charging_stations.html https://mapcomplete.org/charging_stations.html to add charging stations as well; data goes to OpenStreetMap too. Disclaimer: I make this

mcpherrinm 23d ago

I think "very straightforward" is vastly overselling how easy editing OSM is. It feels like editing a database, without any affordances for easily making common updates. If the hours of a store are wrong on Google Maps, I just upload a photo of their store, and it'll be corrected quickly. On OSM, well, most things are out of date. There's no simple 'update this business' flow, just a database editor. And a map that feels like I could break anything by clicking in the wrong spot. OSM is a cool project, but it isn't straightforward. And unlike Google and Apple maps, most of the businesses in my area are years out of date, so I can't effectively use it to find information either, so I just don't have any reason to interact with it. Plus no aerial/satellite/streetview imagery, which I understand is probably infeasible, but ultimately it just means OSM is a niche product that won't replace Google. So yeah, I'm propping up Google, but I get way more benefit out of it than having an open data set used to power Amazon's delivery driver routes or whatever.

iririririr 23d ago
skill issue. there's at least three user friendly and better than google maps UX clients. but i guess they didn't bundle with your pixel nor have all the darkpatterns you got used to.
- mitxela 23d ago
  What are they?
  - footy 23d ago
    Everydoor, Streetcomplete, and a secret third option
    - iririririr 18d ago
      did you forget their own editor which is awesome and have overlay with fresh satelite donated by Microsoft?
  - yonatan8070 23d ago

LelouBil 23d ago

I started contributing a couple of months ago, and I am amazed by the fact that there's no vandalizing going on near where I live. There are few contributions around there, mostly automated imports from like 2012.