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Humans fail to stop at stop signs all the time. Their failure to stop kill people as well.

by ImJamal 25d ago

unrented7977 25d ago
And we take away people's ability to drive when they kill people.
- criddell 25d ago
  Often we do not. The Freakonomics podcast had an episode titled The Perfect Crime where they basically say if you want to kill somebody, hit them with your car because that’s often not punished beyond a ticket.
- lotsofpulp 25d ago
  This trial just happened where there was no punishment: https://www.macombgov.org/node/55/news/former-warren-police-officer-found-not-guilty https://www.macombgov.org/node/55/news/former-warren-police-... >According to evidence presented from law enforcement at trial, on September 30, 2024, Burke was operating his patrol vehicle at a high rate of speed without emergency lights or siren activated when it crashed with another vehicle. Burke's partner was injured in the crash, and 34-year-old Cedric Hayden Jr. and 33-year-old Dejuan Pettis were killed. Then there was this one a couple years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jaahnavi_Kandula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jaahnavi_Kandula https://www.theriolindanews.com/2025/04/22/529861/license-to-kill https://www.theriolindanews.com/2025/04/22/529861/license-to... https://calmatters.org/investigation/2025/04/license-to-kill/ https://calmatters.org/investigation/2025/04/license-to-kill...
  - bdangubic 25d ago
    Not sure why you are getting downvoted here though yes, the system is not perfect, in some states more so than in others. it is a fine line between giving someone who deserves it a 2nd chance vs. someone with 17 priors. but guessing you would also agree that allowing "self-driving" tech to kill people on the road without any repercussions isn't all that ideal either?
  - fn-mote 25d ago
    It’s in the US. The “no punishment” might be related to the offender being a policeman. Amazing it went to trial, to be honest.
- marcusverus 25d ago
  You can't compare autonomous systems that drive hundreds of thousands of vehicles to a single person. You have to compare it to hundreds of thousands of people. American drivers kill ~100 people every day behind the wheel of a car. If autonomy were 50% safer and was deployed at such scale that it replaced 50% of all hours driven it would save 25 lives every day. It would also kill 25 people every day. Sadly, many people will clutch their pearls at inevitable headlines like Bloodthirsty Elon Sacrifices 25 Innocents on the Altar of Profit Every Day! and, their emotions sufficiently primed, they will happily pull the plug on autonomy, sending 25 people per day to their deaths and feeling great about themselves as they do it.
  - orwin 25d ago
    Ok, in my country, you actually get your license removed and jail time if you kill someone (usually 2 years, up to 10 if you're drinking). Let's say Tesla kill 50% less than a human driver, I'd agree to give Tesla's board 50% of the sentence for each person autopilot kills. As an incentive to make the cars kill less.
    - marcusverus 24d ago
      Let's reformulate it as a railroad problem. In the proposed hypothetical, if you effectively ban self driving cars until they're literally flawless, 50 people per day will be killed by human drivers every day. If you pull the lever and allow imperfect-but-better-than-human self-driving, 25 people per day will be killed by by autonomous vehicles. As a reference point, non-suicide gun-related deaths total ~45 people per day. What moral principle could possibly justify not pulling the lever?
      - orwin 24d ago
        But, even as everyone talk about morality as an ideal, no one really cares about it (else the world would be very, very different). What most people care about is feeling that things are 'fair', at least the appearance of fairness. I guarantee you that if a company accepts that it's board (or executives) get jailed if their car makes a mistake that kills someone, like any random driver, people will accept it.

Humans fail to stop at stop signs all the time. Their failure to stop kill people as well.

by ImJamal 25d ago

Humans fail to stop at stop signs all the time. Their failure to stop kill people as well.

unrented7977 25d ago

And we take away people's ability to drive when they kill people.

criddell 25d ago
Often we do not. The Freakonomics podcast had an episode titled The Perfect Crime where they basically say if you want to kill somebody, hit them with your car because that’s often not punished beyond a ticket.
lotsofpulp 25d ago
This trial just happened where there was no punishment: https://www.macombgov.org/node/55/news/former-warren-police-officer-found-not-guilty https://www.macombgov.org/node/55/news/former-warren-police-... >According to evidence presented from law enforcement at trial, on September 30, 2024, Burke was operating his patrol vehicle at a high rate of speed without emergency lights or siren activated when it crashed with another vehicle. Burke's partner was injured in the crash, and 34-year-old Cedric Hayden Jr. and 33-year-old Dejuan Pettis were killed. Then there was this one a couple years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jaahnavi_Kandula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Jaahnavi_Kandula https://www.theriolindanews.com/2025/04/22/529861/license-to-kill https://www.theriolindanews.com/2025/04/22/529861/license-to... https://calmatters.org/investigation/2025/04/license-to-kill/ https://calmatters.org/investigation/2025/04/license-to-kill...
- bdangubic 25d ago
  Not sure why you are getting downvoted here though yes, the system is not perfect, in some states more so than in others. it is a fine line between giving someone who deserves it a 2nd chance vs. someone with 17 priors. but guessing you would also agree that allowing "self-driving" tech to kill people on the road without any repercussions isn't all that ideal either?
- fn-mote 25d ago
  It’s in the US. The “no punishment” might be related to the offender being a policeman. Amazing it went to trial, to be honest.
marcusverus 25d ago
You can't compare autonomous systems that drive hundreds of thousands of vehicles to a single person. You have to compare it to hundreds of thousands of people. American drivers kill ~100 people every day behind the wheel of a car. If autonomy were 50% safer and was deployed at such scale that it replaced 50% of all hours driven it would save 25 lives every day. It would also kill 25 people every day. Sadly, many people will clutch their pearls at inevitable headlines like Bloodthirsty Elon Sacrifices 25 Innocents on the Altar of Profit Every Day! and, their emotions sufficiently primed, they will happily pull the plug on autonomy, sending 25 people per day to their deaths and feeling great about themselves as they do it.
- orwin 25d ago
  Ok, in my country, you actually get your license removed and jail time if you kill someone (usually 2 years, up to 10 if you're drinking). Let's say Tesla kill 50% less than a human driver, I'd agree to give Tesla's board 50% of the sentence for each person autopilot kills. As an incentive to make the cars kill less.
  - marcusverus 24d ago
    Let's reformulate it as a railroad problem. In the proposed hypothetical, if you effectively ban self driving cars until they're literally flawless, 50 people per day will be killed by human drivers every day. If you pull the lever and allow imperfect-but-better-than-human self-driving, 25 people per day will be killed by by autonomous vehicles. As a reference point, non-suicide gun-related deaths total ~45 people per day. What moral principle could possibly justify not pulling the lever?
    - orwin 24d ago
      But, even as everyone talk about morality as an ideal, no one really cares about it (else the world would be very, very different). What most people care about is feeling that things are 'fair', at least the appearance of fairness. I guarantee you that if a company accepts that it's board (or executives) get jailed if their car makes a mistake that kills someone, like any random driver, people will accept it.