5 ms·

The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of y

by vrganj 1mo ago

The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. It's not Anti-Americanism, but if you want to go out with the belle of the ball, you actually have to try. You don't get to date her by default, and she is getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. Ukraine already is our problem, the vast majority of support comes from Europe. It's your continued insistence that you don't even have to try while expecting us to stay by your side that is the issue. A friend that keeps asking for more while not helping in need is not a friend at all.

0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
>The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. If that means you're going to stop blaming us for everything, it sounds fantastic. BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. >You don't get us by default, and we are getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. As I stated in another comment thread: "For years our leaders told you to be less dependent on us. Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us. It's mind-blowing how out-of-touch you guys can be." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103
- vrganj 1mo ago
  > BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. You do know American power projection is mostly based on bases on European soil? That your economy is greatly benefiting from integration with ours? You think America can be significant on a world stage where Europe turns away? You think you could stomach losing access to the world's largest market of wealthy consumers? You think your sanctions would be effective if we didn't go along? Every single power mechanism available to the US is dependent on our cooperation. > Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us Of course it's a favour to you. We supported your nonsense in exchange for you dealing with the military grunt work. Out of touch is only the one that tries to kill the golden goose because it sometimes needs feeding.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
    >That your economy is mostly based on integration with ours? The US is one of the world's least import/export-dependent economies. Furthermore, you can see a list of our top 10 import/export partners here; only one is European: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa The US became the world's largest economy around 1890, half a century prior to the start of NATO: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-database?tab=line&time=1820..1960 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-data... Of the 20 most valuable companies in the world, 16 are American: https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/ (Of course, military strength rests on a basis of economic strength. That's international relations 101.) This is why I say that Europeans are delusional. They're uninformed about the most basic facts about the world. The claim that the US economy is "mostly" based on integration with Europe is just astonishing. Your colonial empires are long gone, but your colonial mentality is remarkably unchanged. No wonder you think of yourself as a "belle" with this level of delusional self-regard.
    - vrganj 1mo ago
      Europe is not one country in a list. It's one trade union, that together is bigger than any other economy on your graph. Also note that you haven't acknowledged any of the other, more important points. It's not just your economy that depends on us. It's every single measure of power. Rammstein. Sigonella. SWIFT. Every single dimension of American power is based on governments in Europe granting it. I would suggest you stop being so ungrateful before we stop doing so. We are the Belle of the Ball, the only superpower that has both China and the US dependent on them. Whoever we choose to support is who wins global dominance. And right now, the US is being a bit of a shitty boyfriend.
      - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
        >Europe is not one country in a list. It's one trade union, that together is bigger than any other economy on your graph. Wikipedia states the EU is only about 20% of our total trade. Recall that trade itself is a relatively small fraction of our economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_pa... So the statement "the US economy is mostly based on integration with the European economy" is astonishingly ignorant and arrogant. If you can't acknowledge that in your next reply, I don't think there is any point in me leaving more comments after this one. >Every single dimension of American power is based on governments in Europe granting it. I would suggest you stop being so ungrateful before we stop doing so. This is an extremely bold statement on your part, given Europe's extreme dependence on US weapon systems. Regarding military bases, I'm evaluating relative to a counterfactual where the US recedes back into isolation. Prior to WW2 we had a policy of avoiding alliances in peacetime. From that perspective, why would we need to project power in Europe... if we weren't defending Europe? We have our own oil now. No need to be in the Middle East anymore. Again, it's Europeans telling me that they're doing me a favor by letting the US defend them for the past 8 decades. Just mind-blowing. Maybe we should start arming Russia so we'd be competitive with China for status as your "boyfriend". Here's a life hack. Learn to use Google. You claimed: "You do know American power projection is mostly based on bases on European soil?" Google search for: "What fraction of US military bases are in Europe?" The answer? 4-5%. Is the claim that American power projection is "mostly" based on bases on European soil prima facie plausible if only 4-5% of our bases are on European soil? Doing a quick Google can help you understand the yawning delta between your beliefs and the facts. And BTW, I think Trump is a terrible president and I'm quite upset about the whole Greenland thing. But Europeans are the most annoying people in the world, bar none. I'd honestly prefer an alliance with China over an alliance with Europe. Should be a good way to achieve world peace, if nothing else. I care more about peace than "winning" "global dominance".
0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
Why does Europe get to be the belle? Why can't the US be the belle? Early in the invasion of Ukraine, when Biden was sending billions of dollars in support, the internet was full of anger from Europeans that the US wasn't sending even more. Did you ever think that we might be getting "increasingly tired of your entitled attitude"?
- vrganj 1mo ago
  Because there's three grand powers in the world and two of them are locked in contest. The third one is the only one that can shift the balance of powers, so it gets to be kingmaker.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
    Why should I care about winning this contest?
    - vrganj 1mo ago
      I don't know. It's your leadership that started the contest in the first place, take it up with them. Either way though, they decided to care and now they're trying to abandon their winning hand. You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care.
      - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
        >You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care. Why not? You seem to think that these silly arguments based on your invented verbal classifications such as who is "playing the game" should count as constraints on US foreign policy. The fundamental problem is that we gave you a sweetheart deal for decades. You got used to it and took it for granted. Aspects of that deal are being renegotiated. You're now saying: "Where are my entitlements?" But they were never entitlements. In any case--good luck buddy. I think you're beyond my help.
        1mo ago

by vrganj 1mo ago

0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago

>The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. If that means you're going to stop blaming us for everything, it sounds fantastic. BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. >You don't get us by default, and we are getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. As I stated in another comment thread: "For years our leaders told you to be less dependent on us. Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us. It's mind-blowing how out-of-touch you guys can be." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103

vrganj 1mo ago
> BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. You do know American power projection is mostly based on bases on European soil? That your economy is greatly benefiting from integration with ours? You think America can be significant on a world stage where Europe turns away? You think you could stomach losing access to the world's largest market of wealthy consumers? You think your sanctions would be effective if we didn't go along? Every single power mechanism available to the US is dependent on our cooperation. > Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us Of course it's a favour to you. We supported your nonsense in exchange for you dealing with the military grunt work. Out of touch is only the one that tries to kill the golden goose because it sometimes needs feeding.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
  >That your economy is mostly based on integration with ours? The US is one of the world's least import/export-dependent economies. Furthermore, you can see a list of our top 10 import/export partners here; only one is European: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa The US became the world's largest economy around 1890, half a century prior to the start of NATO: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-database?tab=line&time=1820..1960 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-data... Of the 20 most valuable companies in the world, 16 are American: https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/ (Of course, military strength rests on a basis of economic strength. That's international relations 101.) This is why I say that Europeans are delusional. They're uninformed about the most basic facts about the world. The claim that the US economy is "mostly" based on integration with Europe is just astonishing. Your colonial empires are long gone, but your colonial mentality is remarkably unchanged. No wonder you think of yourself as a "belle" with this level of delusional self-regard.
  - vrganj 1mo ago
    Europe is not one country in a list. It's one trade union, that together is bigger than any other economy on your graph. Also note that you haven't acknowledged any of the other, more important points. It's not just your economy that depends on us. It's every single measure of power. Rammstein. Sigonella. SWIFT. Every single dimension of American power is based on governments in Europe granting it. I would suggest you stop being so ungrateful before we stop doing so. We are the Belle of the Ball, the only superpower that has both China and the US dependent on them. Whoever we choose to support is who wins global dominance. And right now, the US is being a bit of a shitty boyfriend.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
      >Europe is not one country in a list. It's one trade union, that together is bigger than any other economy on your graph. Wikipedia states the EU is only about 20% of our total trade. Recall that trade itself is a relatively small fraction of our economy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_pa... So the statement "the US economy is mostly based on integration with the European economy" is astonishingly ignorant and arrogant. If you can't acknowledge that in your next reply, I don't think there is any point in me leaving more comments after this one. >Every single dimension of American power is based on governments in Europe granting it. I would suggest you stop being so ungrateful before we stop doing so. This is an extremely bold statement on your part, given Europe's extreme dependence on US weapon systems. Regarding military bases, I'm evaluating relative to a counterfactual where the US recedes back into isolation. Prior to WW2 we had a policy of avoiding alliances in peacetime. From that perspective, why would we need to project power in Europe... if we weren't defending Europe? We have our own oil now. No need to be in the Middle East anymore. Again, it's Europeans telling me that they're doing me a favor by letting the US defend them for the past 8 decades. Just mind-blowing. Maybe we should start arming Russia so we'd be competitive with China for status as your "boyfriend". Here's a life hack. Learn to use Google. You claimed: "You do know American power projection is mostly based on bases on European soil?" Google search for: "What fraction of US military bases are in Europe?" The answer? 4-5%. Is the claim that American power projection is "mostly" based on bases on European soil prima facie plausible if only 4-5% of our bases are on European soil? Doing a quick Google can help you understand the yawning delta between your beliefs and the facts. And BTW, I think Trump is a terrible president and I'm quite upset about the whole Greenland thing. But Europeans are the most annoying people in the world, bar none. I'd honestly prefer an alliance with China over an alliance with Europe. Should be a good way to achieve world peace, if nothing else. I care more about peace than "winning" "global dominance".

0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago

Why does Europe get to be the belle? Why can't the US be the belle? Early in the invasion of Ukraine, when Biden was sending billions of dollars in support, the internet was full of anger from Europeans that the US wasn't sending even more. Did you ever think that we might be getting "increasingly tired of your entitled attitude"?

vrganj 1mo ago
Because there's three grand powers in the world and two of them are locked in contest. The third one is the only one that can shift the balance of powers, so it gets to be kingmaker.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
  Why should I care about winning this contest?
  - vrganj 1mo ago
    I don't know. It's your leadership that started the contest in the first place, take it up with them. Either way though, they decided to care and now they're trying to abandon their winning hand. You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
      >You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care. Why not? You seem to think that these silly arguments based on your invented verbal classifications such as who is "playing the game" should count as constraints on US foreign policy. The fundamental problem is that we gave you a sweetheart deal for decades. You got used to it and took it for granted. Aspects of that deal are being renegotiated. You're now saying: "Where are my entitlements?" But they were never entitlements. In any case--good luck buddy. I think you're beyond my help.
      - 1mo ago