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Another saying is: "The beatings will continue until morale improves." The US sent billions to Ukraine, and what did we get in return? Europeans telling us th

Another saying is: "The beatings will continue until morale improves." The US sent billions to Ukraine, and what did we get in return? Europeans telling us that "the last time the US did anything good for the world was WW2". It's not about hegemons vs non-hegemons either. China sends war supplies to Russia and Europe barely complains. How about this: Consider our loss of support for Ukraine as an abandonment of aspirations of hegemony in Eastern Europe. Bingo, now we no longer have "great power" in that region, nor "great responsibility". Ukraine is your problem now. Ultimately, you're just playing language games. There's no reason a Swiss taxpayer should be less responsible than an American taxpayer. This is all just anti-Americanism. People like to scapegoat the US whenever they're dissatisfied regarding anything, virtually anywhere around the world. There's frequently a creative way to blame the US. And because people are impossible to please, and they are always dissatisfied, the US is always blamed. I'm sick of it.

vrganj 1mo ago
The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. It's not Anti-Americanism, but if you want to go out with the belle of the ball, you actually have to try. You don't get to date her by default, and she is getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. Ukraine already is our problem, the vast majority of support comes from Europe. It's your continued insistence that you don't even have to try while expecting us to stay by your side that is the issue. A friend that keeps asking for more while not helping in need is not a friend at all.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
  >The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. If that means you're going to stop blaming us for everything, it sounds fantastic. BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. >You don't get us by default, and we are getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. As I stated in another comment thread: "For years our leaders told you to be less dependent on us. Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us. It's mind-blowing how out-of-touch you guys can be." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103
  - vrganj 1mo ago
    > BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. You do know American power projection is mostly based on bases on European soil? That your economy is greatly benefiting from integration with ours? You think America can be significant on a world stage where Europe turns away? You think you could stomach losing access to the world's largest market of wealthy consumers? You think your sanctions would be effective if we didn't go along? Every single power mechanism available to the US is dependent on our cooperation. > Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us Of course it's a favour to you. We supported your nonsense in exchange for you dealing with the military grunt work. Out of touch is only the one that tries to kill the golden goose because it sometimes needs feeding.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
      >That your economy is mostly based on integration with ours? The US is one of the world's least import/export-dependent economies. Furthermore, you can see a list of our top 10 import/export partners here; only one is European: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa The US became the world's largest economy around 1890, half a century prior to the start of NATO: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-database?tab=line&time=1820..1960 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-data... Of the 20 most valuable companies in the world, 16 are American: https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/ (Of course, military strength rests on a basis of economic strength. That's international relations 101.) This is why I say that Europeans are delusional. They're uninformed about the most basic facts about the world. The claim that the US economy is "mostly" based on integration with Europe is just astonishing. Your colonial empires are long gone, but your colonial mentality is remarkably unchanged. No wonder you think of yourself as a "belle" with this level of delusional self-regard.
      - vrganj 1mo ago
        Europe is not one country in a list. It's one trade union, that together is bigger than any other economy on your graph. Also note that you haven't acknowledged any of the other, more important points. It's not just your economy that depends on us. It's every single measure of power. Rammstein. Sigonella. SWIFT. Every single dimension of American power is based on governments in Europe granting it. I would suggest you stop being so ungrateful before we stop doing so. We are the Belle of the Ball, the only superpower that has both China and the US dependent on them. Whoever we choose to support is who wins global dominance. And right now, the US is being a bit of a shitty boyfriend.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
  Why does Europe get to be the belle? Why can't the US be the belle? Early in the invasion of Ukraine, when Biden was sending billions of dollars in support, the internet was full of anger from Europeans that the US wasn't sending even more. Did you ever think that we might be getting "increasingly tired of your entitled attitude"?
  - vrganj 1mo ago
    Because there's three grand powers in the world and two of them are locked in contest. The third one is the only one that can shift the balance of powers, so it gets to be kingmaker.
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
      Why should I care about winning this contest?
      - vrganj 1mo ago
        I don't know. It's your leadership that started the contest in the first place, take it up with them. Either way though, they decided to care and now they're trying to abandon their winning hand. You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care.
        0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
        >You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care. Why not? You seem to think that these silly arguments based on your invented verbal classifications such as who is "playing the game" should count as constraints on US foreign policy. The fundamental problem is that we gave you a sweetheart deal for decades. You got used to it and took it for granted. Aspects of that deal are being renegotiated. You're now saying: "Where are my entitlements?" But they were never entitlements. In any case--good luck buddy. I think you're beyond my help.
        1mo ago
mopsi 1mo ago
> How about this: Consider our loss of support for Ukraine as an abandonment of aspirations of hegemony in Eastern Europe. But you are not abandoning those aspirations, that's the problem. The US has spent decades embedding itself into the security and foreign policy structures of other countries, effectively giving itself veto power over the decisions of tens of countries. Now it unwilling to use that power responsibly, but at the same time it is unwilling to give it up too. There is a strange assumption in the US establishment that their current position in the world is the natural order of things and not the result of decades of Cold War era cooperation. Despite all the complaints about allies freeloading, the establishment seems utterly shocked and confused when those allies start reducing their dependence on the US, for example, by pivoting investments into their own weapons production instead of buying American. You want the benefits of having allies dependent on the US, while treating any attempt by allies to become more self-reliant as a problem. Talk about entitlement!
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
  First, I have serious disagreements with current US leadership. Second, everything I've seen from the current US defense leadership has been consistent on encouraging Europe to build up its defense-industrial base.
  - 8note 1mo ago
    US defense leadership has been pretty consistent about wanting europe to expand defense funding, but spent on american defense industry, rather than European capacity and technology it has also been very unfriendly to europe building up any sovereignty, eg. to continue trading with Iran on the euro when the US pulled out of the JCPOA
    - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
      >US defense leadership has been pretty consistent about wanting europe to expand defense funding, but spent on american defense industry, rather than European capacity and technology Try listening to the actual words that US leadership says instead of the creative interpretations that Europeans come up with.

vrganj 1mo ago

The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. It's not Anti-Americanism, but if you want to go out with the belle of the ball, you actually have to try. You don't get to date her by default, and she is getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. Ukraine already is our problem, the vast majority of support comes from Europe. It's your continued insistence that you don't even have to try while expecting us to stay by your side that is the issue. A friend that keeps asking for more while not helping in need is not a friend at all.

0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
>The thing is, if you don't help us in Eastern Europe, you don't just lose hegemonial status there. You lose all of Europe and with that the very foundation of your power. If that means you're going to stop blaming us for everything, it sounds fantastic. BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. >You don't get us by default, and we are getting increasingly tired of your entitled attitude. As I stated in another comment thread: "For years our leaders told you to be less dependent on us. Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us. It's mind-blowing how out-of-touch you guys can be." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49574103
- vrganj 1mo ago
  > BTW if you think Europe is "the very foundation" of American power you're delusional. You do know American power projection is mostly based on bases on European soil? That your economy is greatly benefiting from integration with ours? You think America can be significant on a world stage where Europe turns away? You think you could stomach losing access to the world's largest market of wealthy consumers? You think your sanctions would be effective if we didn't go along? Every single power mechanism available to the US is dependent on our cooperation. > Now you're speaking as though your dependency on us was some kind of favor you were doing for us Of course it's a favour to you. We supported your nonsense in exchange for you dealing with the military grunt work. Out of touch is only the one that tries to kill the golden goose because it sometimes needs feeding.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
    >That your economy is mostly based on integration with ours? The US is one of the world's least import/export-dependent economies. Furthermore, you can see a list of our top 10 import/export partners here; only one is European: https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa The US became the world's largest economy around 1890, half a century prior to the start of NATO: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-database?tab=line&time=1820..1960 https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-maddison-project-data... Of the 20 most valuable companies in the world, 16 are American: https://companiesmarketcap.com/ https://companiesmarketcap.com/ (Of course, military strength rests on a basis of economic strength. That's international relations 101.) This is why I say that Europeans are delusional. They're uninformed about the most basic facts about the world. The claim that the US economy is "mostly" based on integration with Europe is just astonishing. Your colonial empires are long gone, but your colonial mentality is remarkably unchanged. No wonder you think of yourself as a "belle" with this level of delusional self-regard.
    - vrganj 1mo ago
      Europe is not one country in a list. It's one trade union, that together is bigger than any other economy on your graph. Also note that you haven't acknowledged any of the other, more important points. It's not just your economy that depends on us. It's every single measure of power. Rammstein. Sigonella. SWIFT. Every single dimension of American power is based on governments in Europe granting it. I would suggest you stop being so ungrateful before we stop doing so. We are the Belle of the Ball, the only superpower that has both China and the US dependent on them. Whoever we choose to support is who wins global dominance. And right now, the US is being a bit of a shitty boyfriend.
0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
Why does Europe get to be the belle? Why can't the US be the belle? Early in the invasion of Ukraine, when Biden was sending billions of dollars in support, the internet was full of anger from Europeans that the US wasn't sending even more. Did you ever think that we might be getting "increasingly tired of your entitled attitude"?
- vrganj 1mo ago
  Because there's three grand powers in the world and two of them are locked in contest. The third one is the only one that can shift the balance of powers, so it gets to be kingmaker.
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
    Why should I care about winning this contest?
    - vrganj 1mo ago
      I don't know. It's your leadership that started the contest in the first place, take it up with them. Either way though, they decided to care and now they're trying to abandon their winning hand. You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care.
      - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
        >You don't get to both play the game and then pretend you don't care. Why not? You seem to think that these silly arguments based on your invented verbal classifications such as who is "playing the game" should count as constraints on US foreign policy. The fundamental problem is that we gave you a sweetheart deal for decades. You got used to it and took it for granted. Aspects of that deal are being renegotiated. You're now saying: "Where are my entitlements?" But they were never entitlements. In any case--good luck buddy. I think you're beyond my help.
        1mo ago

mopsi 1mo ago

> How about this: Consider our loss of support for Ukraine as an abandonment of aspirations of hegemony in Eastern Europe. But you are not abandoning those aspirations, that's the problem. The US has spent decades embedding itself into the security and foreign policy structures of other countries, effectively giving itself veto power over the decisions of tens of countries. Now it unwilling to use that power responsibly, but at the same time it is unwilling to give it up too. There is a strange assumption in the US establishment that their current position in the world is the natural order of things and not the result of decades of Cold War era cooperation. Despite all the complaints about allies freeloading, the establishment seems utterly shocked and confused when those allies start reducing their dependence on the US, for example, by pivoting investments into their own weapons production instead of buying American. You want the benefits of having allies dependent on the US, while treating any attempt by allies to become more self-reliant as a problem. Talk about entitlement!

0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
First, I have serious disagreements with current US leadership. Second, everything I've seen from the current US defense leadership has been consistent on encouraging Europe to build up its defense-industrial base.
- 8note 1mo ago
  US defense leadership has been pretty consistent about wanting europe to expand defense funding, but spent on american defense industry, rather than European capacity and technology it has also been very unfriendly to europe building up any sovereignty, eg. to continue trading with Iran on the euro when the US pulled out of the JCPOA
  - 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago
    >US defense leadership has been pretty consistent about wanting europe to expand defense funding, but spent on american defense industry, rather than European capacity and technology Try listening to the actual words that US leadership says instead of the creative interpretations that Europeans come up with.