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I had to stop after 6 months because my testosterone dropped so much (serious, blood test confirmed). Felt way better for the first few months, then slowly lowe

I had to stop after 6 months because my testosterone dropped so much (serious, blood test confirmed). Felt way better for the first few months, then slowly lower energy and not like myself. Eventually realized more vegetables is good, but nailing is protein wise on true vegan diet is very very hard.

John7878781 26d ago
I am vegan except for fish, and find it works really well. Sardines are awesome!
- adityamwagh 26d ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism
- BowBun 26d ago
  A good term for that is pescatarian - as eating fish is neither vegan nor veg!
- deadbabe 26d ago
  So not vegan at all.
  - Incipient 26d ago
    I'd say their description is fair. We don't have a word for vegan+fish. Pescetarianism includes eggs, milk, etc. So they're precisely vegan, with fish.
    - colordrops 26d ago
      Except veganism is not a diet, but an ethical framework. The diet is a consequence, not the definition.
      - Moomoomoo309 25d ago
        What is the term for the vegan diet sans the ethical framework? If there isn't one, that kinda sucks.
        colordrops 25d ago
        It does indeed exist, it's called the Plant Based Diet.
        Moomoomoo309 25d ago
        That makes sense, thank you!
    - deadbabe 26d ago
      That is absolutely wrong. There is no gray area when it comes to veganism. Just because there is no word for that diet, does not mean you can just twist the definition of vegan for your convenience. You could easily just say your a pescatarian who doesn’t eat dairy or eggs, and that would be more correct.
      - John7878781 26d ago
        Sorry for not being perfect like you. For ethical reasons, I do not consume dairy or meat (except for fish). The vegan community should be more open to other perspectives, especially when someone is actively making an effort towards reducing harm. Vegan Puritanism is totally antithetical to our collective goal of reducing animal suffering. Rather than being motivated by the prospect of claiming moral superiority, our goal should be to help the animals.
        deadbabe 25d ago
        Killing and eating animals is not a perspective vegans will be open to. You can reduce harm, but you cannot call yourself vegan until you actually eliminate the possibility of eating animals or their products from your life. There is no reason you HAVE to eat fish.
        BowBun 25d ago
        It's not really a moral issue, it's simply the definition of the word. Using an incorrect term to describe yourself knowing it is incorrect can be perceived as virtue-signaling or claiming your own moral superiority. For example, one could ask "why call yourself a vegan if you eat fish?". There's no policing body here, but people are rightfully calling the double-standard out here. Edit: Would also love to hear the ethics of why fish can be eaten when cows/chicken/pigs cannot. Doesn't sound ethically consistent to me at all.
        John7878781 25d ago
        I actually prefer not to call myself a vegan IRL both because of the issue you’re describing and because veganism is (rightfully) associated with having a toxic and intolerant culture. The only reason I said “vegan except fish” in my comment is because the title of the study used the word “vegan” and because the study was talking about veganism in a purely dietary/scientific lens, not an ethical one. I think this was a pretty reasonable thing to do.
- shmoil 26d ago
  And occasional steak? I love steak. I am a pesca-pescaterian, btw.
- bestouff 26d ago
  I'm also vegan except for fish. And meat.
Unit327 26d ago
Correlation is not causation, especially in a sample of 1, the plural of anecdote is not data etc etc. Protein is easy, just eat some beans and rice, tofu, tempeh etc. You can't just take the diet you had before and subtract things and expect it to work, you have to substitute. Make sure to get B12, D and maybe omega 3 and creatine either as supplements or fortified in foods, and get your levels checked every year or so. I've been vegan for 15+ years, and I'm willing to say there are zero health benefits over a healthy omnivorous diet. The people who find one are misattributing it. It's not that vegan is healthier, just that what they were doing before was decidedly unhealthy. For a lot of people going vegan is the first time they actually think about what they eat, read labels etc, which is where most of the benefit comes from.
thriving_earthw 26d ago
It is absolutely not "very hard." It is challenging at first because like anything else, the startup costs of new habit formation can be high. But tofu, soy milk, seitan, tempeh, lentils, and many other plant protein sources are highly available and easy to cook with once you try. Been at it for a few years myself and at this point, it's extremely easy. I take protein shakes when working out, just like I did when I ate animal products. Everyone is different, but if you weren't actually able to hit protein macros then I think that's a skill that isn't too hard to improve for most people (if they have a decent reason for wanting to go vegan in the first place).
moribvndvs 26d ago
I’ve been vegan for 14 years. Protein is not very very hard, unless you have multiple dietary restrictions on top of plant based. Which, if I can be frank, tend to be self imposed when people complain about this to me after dabbling in plant based.

John7878781 26d ago

I am vegan except for fish, and find it works really well. Sardines are awesome!

adityamwagh 26d ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pescetarianism
BowBun 26d ago
A good term for that is pescatarian - as eating fish is neither vegan nor veg!
deadbabe 26d ago
So not vegan at all.
- Incipient 26d ago
  I'd say their description is fair. We don't have a word for vegan+fish. Pescetarianism includes eggs, milk, etc. So they're precisely vegan, with fish.
  - colordrops 26d ago
    Except veganism is not a diet, but an ethical framework. The diet is a consequence, not the definition.
    - Moomoomoo309 25d ago
      What is the term for the vegan diet sans the ethical framework? If there isn't one, that kinda sucks.
      - colordrops 25d ago
        It does indeed exist, it's called the Plant Based Diet.
        Moomoomoo309 25d ago
        That makes sense, thank you!
  - deadbabe 26d ago
    That is absolutely wrong. There is no gray area when it comes to veganism. Just because there is no word for that diet, does not mean you can just twist the definition of vegan for your convenience. You could easily just say your a pescatarian who doesn’t eat dairy or eggs, and that would be more correct.
    - John7878781 26d ago
      Sorry for not being perfect like you. For ethical reasons, I do not consume dairy or meat (except for fish). The vegan community should be more open to other perspectives, especially when someone is actively making an effort towards reducing harm. Vegan Puritanism is totally antithetical to our collective goal of reducing animal suffering. Rather than being motivated by the prospect of claiming moral superiority, our goal should be to help the animals.
      - deadbabe 25d ago
        Killing and eating animals is not a perspective vegans will be open to. You can reduce harm, but you cannot call yourself vegan until you actually eliminate the possibility of eating animals or their products from your life. There is no reason you HAVE to eat fish.
      - BowBun 25d ago
        It's not really a moral issue, it's simply the definition of the word. Using an incorrect term to describe yourself knowing it is incorrect can be perceived as virtue-signaling or claiming your own moral superiority. For example, one could ask "why call yourself a vegan if you eat fish?". There's no policing body here, but people are rightfully calling the double-standard out here. Edit: Would also love to hear the ethics of why fish can be eaten when cows/chicken/pigs cannot. Doesn't sound ethically consistent to me at all.
        John7878781 25d ago
        I actually prefer not to call myself a vegan IRL both because of the issue you’re describing and because veganism is (rightfully) associated with having a toxic and intolerant culture. The only reason I said “vegan except fish” in my comment is because the title of the study used the word “vegan” and because the study was talking about veganism in a purely dietary/scientific lens, not an ethical one. I think this was a pretty reasonable thing to do.
shmoil 26d ago
And occasional steak? I love steak. I am a pesca-pescaterian, btw.
bestouff 26d ago
I'm also vegan except for fish. And meat.

Unit327 26d ago

Correlation is not causation, especially in a sample of 1, the plural of anecdote is not data etc etc. Protein is easy, just eat some beans and rice, tofu, tempeh etc. You can't just take the diet you had before and subtract things and expect it to work, you have to substitute. Make sure to get B12, D and maybe omega 3 and creatine either as supplements or fortified in foods, and get your levels checked every year or so. I've been vegan for 15+ years, and I'm willing to say there are zero health benefits over a healthy omnivorous diet. The people who find one are misattributing it. It's not that vegan is healthier, just that what they were doing before was decidedly unhealthy. For a lot of people going vegan is the first time they actually think about what they eat, read labels etc, which is where most of the benefit comes from.

thriving_earthw 26d ago

It is absolutely not "very hard." It is challenging at first because like anything else, the startup costs of new habit formation can be high. But tofu, soy milk, seitan, tempeh, lentils, and many other plant protein sources are highly available and easy to cook with once you try. Been at it for a few years myself and at this point, it's extremely easy. I take protein shakes when working out, just like I did when I ate animal products. Everyone is different, but if you weren't actually able to hit protein macros then I think that's a skill that isn't too hard to improve for most people (if they have a decent reason for wanting to go vegan in the first place).

moribvndvs 26d ago

I’ve been vegan for 14 years. Protein is not very very hard, unless you have multiple dietary restrictions on top of plant based. Which, if I can be frank, tend to be self imposed when people complain about this to me after dabbling in plant based.