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You can send packets over Ethernet, without IP. That's what people did before IP was invented and took over most networked communication. It's less convenient,

by mitxela 2mo ago

You can send packets over Ethernet, without IP. That's what people did before IP was invented and took over most networked communication. It's less convenient, because you can't reuse the IP stack, so almost nobody does.

ButlerianJihad 2mo ago
Ethernet uses frames, not packets. A falsehood that programmers believe about networking is that everything is a packet. In fact, the "PDU" or protocol data unit for each OSI layer is defined and named differently. So Ethernet communicates with frames. You can simply send frames across a purely Ethernet network. Or, you can take a PDU from an upper layer, encapsulate it as Ethernet frame, and send it across. Most LAN protocols are flexible like that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_(networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_(networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_packet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_packet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_data_unit#Internet_protocol_suite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_data_unit#Internet_pr... And TFA provides a list of upper-layer protocols that may be encountered on a LAN today: "IP, IPX/SPX, Phase IV, AppleTalk, VINES, NetBEUI, or SNA". NetBIOS and NetBEUI are particularly interesting here, because NetBIOS Frames did use IEEE 802.2 LLC, while NBT uses TCP/IP for NetBIOS transport. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS
- mitxela 2mo ago
  A falsehood networkers believe about programming is that you have to call things what the relevant standard calls them, and you have to obey all the random differences that come from different people writing the different standards. IP packets and Ethernet packets aren't the same thing, but IP packets and IP frames are the same thing, because packets and frames are the same thing.
  - allarm 2mo ago
    You're just mixing up completely different things and thinking you're saying something meaningful. In reality, you're just confusing yourself and those around you.
  - SlightlyLeftPad 2mo ago
    We’re standing at a table and there’s an apple and orange there. You pick up the apple, take a bite and say “This orange tastes great.” We all know what you’re trying to say but you’re still wrong.
peanut-walrus 2mo ago
IP and Ethernet were developed around the same time and also became the dominant standards around the same time. But they were mostly unrelated, so you had token ring networks running TCP/IP and Ethernet networks running IPX and all sorts of other combinations. So it's not quite as simple as that. I don't think there's ever been a time when there was a significant adoption of Ethernet without using it in combination with some L3 protocol.

by mitxela 2mo ago

ButlerianJihad 2mo ago

Ethernet uses frames, not packets. A falsehood that programmers believe about networking is that everything is a packet. In fact, the "PDU" or protocol data unit for each OSI layer is defined and named differently. So Ethernet communicates with frames. You can simply send frames across a purely Ethernet network. Or, you can take a PDU from an upper layer, encapsulate it as Ethernet frame, and send it across. Most LAN protocols are flexible like that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_(networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_(networking) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_packet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_packet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_data_unit#Internet_protocol_suite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_data_unit#Internet_pr... And TFA provides a list of upper-layer protocols that may be encountered on a LAN today: "IP, IPX/SPX, Phase IV, AppleTalk, VINES, NetBEUI, or SNA". NetBIOS and NetBEUI are particularly interesting here, because NetBIOS Frames did use IEEE 802.2 LLC, while NBT uses TCP/IP for NetBIOS transport. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NetBIOS

mitxela 2mo ago
A falsehood networkers believe about programming is that you have to call things what the relevant standard calls them, and you have to obey all the random differences that come from different people writing the different standards. IP packets and Ethernet packets aren't the same thing, but IP packets and IP frames are the same thing, because packets and frames are the same thing.
- allarm 2mo ago
  You're just mixing up completely different things and thinking you're saying something meaningful. In reality, you're just confusing yourself and those around you.
- SlightlyLeftPad 2mo ago
  We’re standing at a table and there’s an apple and orange there. You pick up the apple, take a bite and say “This orange tastes great.” We all know what you’re trying to say but you’re still wrong.

peanut-walrus 2mo ago

IP and Ethernet were developed around the same time and also became the dominant standards around the same time. But they were mostly unrelated, so you had token ring networks running TCP/IP and Ethernet networks running IPX and all sorts of other combinations. So it's not quite as simple as that. I don't think there's ever been a time when there was a significant adoption of Ethernet without using it in combination with some L3 protocol.