6 ms·

Is Wikipedia a bad place to work or something? I'd imagine it must be pretty relaxed/cushy, albeit probably at the lower end of market comp for software jobs i

by echelon 28d ago

Is Wikipedia a bad place to work or something? I'd imagine it must be pretty relaxed/cushy, albeit probably at the lower end of market comp for software jobs in particular. Does the union stipulate the workers cannot be replaced with AI?

delichon 28d ago
> Does the union stipulate the workers cannot be replaced with AI? That wouldn't get them off the hook. https://unitedagenticworkers.org/ https://unitedagenticworkers.org/
- edoceo 28d ago
  Is that site a joke?
  - colechristensen 28d ago
    Yes
hobofan 28d ago
Unions are not just for bad employers.
- cm2012 28d ago
  Yes nowadays new unions are basically for employers who have a very ideologically liberal workplace - coffee shops, open source, etc
  - insom 28d ago
    Steel workers, pipe fitters, air-traffic controllers, electricians? There are LUs for each of these popping up all the time. Admittedly they are new chapters for existing large unions but also these jobs have existed for a lot longer, in larger numbers, than "software developer" and barista.
    - groundzeros2015 28d ago
      This is a larp. When was the last time you went to lunch with a pipe fitter?
      - insom 28d ago
        I don’t understand your comment. Do you not know what a pipe-fitter is? What about the trade strikes you as a larp? I’ve never been to lunch with one, although my son worked as a welder’s helper at a pipe-fitting company.
        groundzeros2015 28d ago
        The larp is that software unions are anything like blue collar unions, and that socialists want to selectively act as the voice of blue collar when they are in a completely different class and do not interact with them. I’ll note one key difference. Software output and skills vary on a power scale. Blue collar work is often heavily defined by formal procedures and codes so that trained personnel are largely interchangeable from a business perspective (not always or completely true). So without a union it’s a constant race to the bottom because the labor is fungible and the only requirement for success is passing minimum criteria.
  - hunterpayne 28d ago
    The people you are describing are not liberal. They are progressive which is very much anti-liberal. This is why terms like left and right are so loaded. You can have people who do not agree on almost anything being lumped together. For fun, you can take old Clinton or Obama quotes, post them on progressive forums and watch them call you (them) every name in the book. This is because progressives actually hate liberal policies but will do anything to not admit it because they want to wear the Dem brand as a suit.
collinmcnulty 28d ago
> I'd imagine it must be pretty relaxed/cushy, albeit probably at the lower end of market comp for software jobs in particular. Based on what?
- echelon 28d ago
  Mission-oriented jobs tend to be below-market. Open source, gaming, SpaceX, etc.
  - collinmcnulty 28d ago
    I wouldn’t describe any of those jobs as “cushy”.
  - cortesoft 28d ago
    That explains the below-market part, but not the cushy part. Gaming is notorious for not being cushy.
colechristensen 28d ago
Right? If your logo[1] is going to be a fist raised in defiance you'd better at least have something you're trying to fight about. And if you're going to brag about succeeding in your vote at least give an idea about WHY you want a union in the first place. There are unionization attempts I understand like Amazon warehouse workers and unionization attempts that I don't like the Minneapolis small coffee chain workers whose demands included being able to decide the milk supplier. One seems like standing up for necessary rights, the other seems like cosplay. 1. https://wikiworkersunited.org/ https://wikiworkersunited.org/
- NoImmatureAdHom 28d ago
  Yeah, I posted before I saw your comment here but "cosplay" is a good word for it.
- kotaKat 28d ago
  [flagged]
  - dwb 28d ago
    This is divide-and-conquer rhetoric from someone who doesn’t want labour power. Workers would be much better off if we all stood together no matter how much we were paid or what our conditions were. Edit: oh I see, your bio brags that you’re a scab, that explains it
    - insom 28d ago
      Honestly increasing the number of unions in otherwise un-unionized industries is a win for us all. The same goes for Starbucks.
    - OneDeuxTriSeiGo 28d ago
      Exactly. Unions don't have to exist solely because the company is evil and refusing to give workers a fair shake. Unions are a compromise and frankly exist to provide a democratic path and open dialogue towards resolving issues before the workers are sufficiently pissed off that the only option left is a full on strike. Some unions start with a strike but it's by no means a requirement.
VLM 28d ago
One person complaining on Wired about "... says she ... had seen too many colleagues decline to speak up during internal meetings out of fear of retaliation for raising issues or proposing far-out ideas." that is evidence of at least one anecdotal individual personal issue. HOWEVER, the vote being "overwhelming" would seem to indicate they have a severe company culture problem not just one anecdotal issue, its not like she was the only one voting for the union LOL. I've worked at companies with and without unions and the ones that had a union, severely needed the union due to incredibly toxic workplace culture combined with a total lack of management accountability for their responsibility/behavior. Generally people won't bother keeping a union going unless they badly need it, given the enormous resources stacked up against them against forming and operating a union... It has to be a pretty awful workplace if forming a union against all that opposition is somehow still the better path... The quality of management has certainly not improved over generations or decades, so an era of declining union membership is probably not an indication of there being too many unions LOL.
rexpop 27d ago
A place doesn't have to be relatively bad to warrant more democracy. Why is everyone so apprehensive about democracy?

by echelon 28d ago

delichon 28d ago

> Does the union stipulate the workers cannot be replaced with AI? That wouldn't get them off the hook. https://unitedagenticworkers.org/ https://unitedagenticworkers.org/

edoceo 28d ago
Is that site a joke?
- colechristensen 28d ago
  Yes

hobofan 28d ago

Unions are not just for bad employers.

cm2012 28d ago
Yes nowadays new unions are basically for employers who have a very ideologically liberal workplace - coffee shops, open source, etc
- insom 28d ago
  Steel workers, pipe fitters, air-traffic controllers, electricians? There are LUs for each of these popping up all the time. Admittedly they are new chapters for existing large unions but also these jobs have existed for a lot longer, in larger numbers, than "software developer" and barista.
  - groundzeros2015 28d ago
    This is a larp. When was the last time you went to lunch with a pipe fitter?
    - insom 28d ago
      I don’t understand your comment. Do you not know what a pipe-fitter is? What about the trade strikes you as a larp? I’ve never been to lunch with one, although my son worked as a welder’s helper at a pipe-fitting company.
      - groundzeros2015 28d ago
        The larp is that software unions are anything like blue collar unions, and that socialists want to selectively act as the voice of blue collar when they are in a completely different class and do not interact with them. I’ll note one key difference. Software output and skills vary on a power scale. Blue collar work is often heavily defined by formal procedures and codes so that trained personnel are largely interchangeable from a business perspective (not always or completely true). So without a union it’s a constant race to the bottom because the labor is fungible and the only requirement for success is passing minimum criteria.
- hunterpayne 28d ago
  The people you are describing are not liberal. They are progressive which is very much anti-liberal. This is why terms like left and right are so loaded. You can have people who do not agree on almost anything being lumped together. For fun, you can take old Clinton or Obama quotes, post them on progressive forums and watch them call you (them) every name in the book. This is because progressives actually hate liberal policies but will do anything to not admit it because they want to wear the Dem brand as a suit.

collinmcnulty 28d ago

> I'd imagine it must be pretty relaxed/cushy, albeit probably at the lower end of market comp for software jobs in particular. Based on what?

echelon 28d ago
Mission-oriented jobs tend to be below-market. Open source, gaming, SpaceX, etc.
- collinmcnulty 28d ago
  I wouldn’t describe any of those jobs as “cushy”.
- cortesoft 28d ago
  That explains the below-market part, but not the cushy part. Gaming is notorious for not being cushy.

colechristensen 28d ago

Right? If your logo[1] is going to be a fist raised in defiance you'd better at least have something you're trying to fight about. And if you're going to brag about succeeding in your vote at least give an idea about WHY you want a union in the first place. There are unionization attempts I understand like Amazon warehouse workers and unionization attempts that I don't like the Minneapolis small coffee chain workers whose demands included being able to decide the milk supplier. One seems like standing up for necessary rights, the other seems like cosplay. 1. https://wikiworkersunited.org/ https://wikiworkersunited.org/

NoImmatureAdHom 28d ago
Yeah, I posted before I saw your comment here but "cosplay" is a good word for it.
kotaKat 28d ago
[flagged]
- dwb 28d ago
  This is divide-and-conquer rhetoric from someone who doesn’t want labour power. Workers would be much better off if we all stood together no matter how much we were paid or what our conditions were. Edit: oh I see, your bio brags that you’re a scab, that explains it
  - insom 28d ago
    Honestly increasing the number of unions in otherwise un-unionized industries is a win for us all. The same goes for Starbucks.
  - OneDeuxTriSeiGo 28d ago
    Exactly. Unions don't have to exist solely because the company is evil and refusing to give workers a fair shake. Unions are a compromise and frankly exist to provide a democratic path and open dialogue towards resolving issues before the workers are sufficiently pissed off that the only option left is a full on strike. Some unions start with a strike but it's by no means a requirement.

VLM 28d ago

One person complaining on Wired about "... says she ... had seen too many colleagues decline to speak up during internal meetings out of fear of retaliation for raising issues or proposing far-out ideas." that is evidence of at least one anecdotal individual personal issue. HOWEVER, the vote being "overwhelming" would seem to indicate they have a severe company culture problem not just one anecdotal issue, its not like she was the only one voting for the union LOL. I've worked at companies with and without unions and the ones that had a union, severely needed the union due to incredibly toxic workplace culture combined with a total lack of management accountability for their responsibility/behavior. Generally people won't bother keeping a union going unless they badly need it, given the enormous resources stacked up against them against forming and operating a union... It has to be a pretty awful workplace if forming a union against all that opposition is somehow still the better path... The quality of management has certainly not improved over generations or decades, so an era of declining union membership is probably not an indication of there being too many unions LOL.

rexpop 27d ago

A place doesn't have to be relatively bad to warrant more democracy. Why is everyone so apprehensive about democracy?