5 ms·

This sounds nice, but what if your neighbor's political views are an existential threat to you personally? What if they don't want you to live in their neighbor

This sounds nice, but what if your neighbor's political views are an existential threat to you personally? What if they don't want you to live in their neighborhood because of the color of your skin, or if they don't think you're a fit parent because you let your kid wear certain clothes? There are some things about which we can have friendly disagreements, like Laffer curves, school vouchers, the death penalty, environmental regulations, or whatever. But there are other disagreements which mean we cannot be friends.

jonhohle 28d ago
Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. And realize that your hangups, quirks, and beliefs are just as offensive to them as theirs are to yours but that doesn’t mean either one of you is. Or a good neighbor that can’t crack a beer and just live next door to one another.
- hackyhacky 28d ago
  > Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. You would have liked my grandmother, who shared your opinion that kindness between neighbors can heal political rifts. Unfortunately it didn't work out so well for her, as despite her kindness, the neighbors sent her to Dachau anyway.
  - jonhohle 28d ago
    Once again with the implication that conservatives are equivalent to Nazis and therefore should be treated with vitriol. The hyperbole isn’t unwarranted and the whole point.
    - hackyhacky 28d ago
      That's not the implication. Read it again, stop playing the victim. The point is simply that hate is not rational, and that your proposal of kindness does nothing to assuage the rampant ignorance and xenophobia that animates evil ideology. Would you prefer a Communist rather than Nazi parable? Either way works.
      - TimTheTinker 28d ago
        > evil ideology Does exist and should be labeled as such. But it's also always been a term that evil political movements use to label those who oppose their ideas. Let the wise be discerning. Not all is as it appears on the surface or is reported to be.
        hackyhacky 28d ago
        > Not all is as it appears on the surface or is reported to be. Are you literally asking for a moral re-evaluaion of fascism?
        TimTheTinker 28d ago
        Heck no. Hitler and Mussolini were deeply evil and their ideology was too. But there's nothing like them happening today.
        hackyhacky 28d ago
        > But there's nothing like them happening today. <rolls eyes> https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-president-and-constitutional-violations-will-the-federal-courts-contain-the-presidents-power-grabs/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-president-and-c...
        deleted 25d ago
        [deleted]
        28d ago
  - machomaster 28d ago
    Was it really her neighbors that sent her there or a police/military? I very much doubt that. But let's play the hypothetical. - Would your grandmother's fate be better if instead of kindness she would be spewing vitriol? Don't think so, the situation would have been even worse, much faster. - What about the other side of the coin - about all of those people, who survived, because they were nice and friendly? - In general, always having the same strategy, no matter what is happening around you, is dumb. When the environment changes, so should the behavior. Kindness often helps, but not against wild animals like bears, nature forces like tornadoes, and the faceless state bureucracy.
    - hackyhacky 28d ago
      > Would your grandmother's fate be better if instead of kindness she would be spewing vitriol? "Spewing vitriol" is loaded language used to smear people you disagree with. The fact is that during the Nazi regime, some people did speak out against the atrocities, and some people did fight back. More people should have. Those who did resist would certainly have been described as "spewing vitriol" by those in power. I wish my grandmother was that brave. > What about the other side of the coin - about all of those people, who survived, because they were nice and friendly? Some things are more important than surviving.
- santoshalper 28d ago
  This is just sentimental nonsense. You are not obligated to patronize or be friendly to evil people.
  - jonhohle 28d ago
    > evil people Your conservative neighbor is no more evil than someone who thinks their conservative neighbor is evil because they are conservative.
    - hackyhacky 28d ago
      You said: > Your conservative neighbor is no more evil than someone who thinks their conservative neighbor is evil because they are conservative. In response this: > This is just sentimental nonsense. You are not obligated to patronize or be friendly to evil people. Why do you assume that "evil" == "conservative" here?
      - jonhohle 28d ago
        Inferred based on OP and other comments from parent. Works the same way reverse.
        hackyhacky 28d ago
        Incorrect inference. You're so eager to achieve victim status that you've totally missed the point.
- knodi123 28d ago
  I don't want to sound hyperbolic, but what if you were a jew, and you applied that reasoning to your hitler-loving neighbors back in nazi germany? Modern politics is fundamentally different from the way things used to be. The right-wing political parties in america today have almost nothing at their core besides hatred for marginalized communities. Demonizing trans people, immigrants, muslims, "communists"- that's it. Everything else is just the whims of an impulsive imbecile - the tariffs, the war with Iran, kidnapping the president of Venezuela, the belligerence towards _greenland_ (?!?!?), etc... And the purpose behind demonizing them it to energize a shrinking demographic base to compensate for how many reasonable people they've driven away. So at this point, the ones who remain under the maga umbrella have been exposed to so much vitriolic propaganda that they are just at a fever pitch of hatred at all times. I've seen it countless times in my own life- People who used to say that Obama was naive and inexperienced and that his policies were misguided, but who now say he's a muslim jihadi who wanted to destroy america. And so on with many other political issues. I have several close relatives who used to be like bob, or van- but MAGA has changed them. They are just completely dripping with hate, now. And if I was a member of one of the communities they've been frothed up against, I don't know if I'd feel safe trying to engage with them like the person on the OP.
user982 28d ago
The essay makes a token gesture toward this ("privilege and power dynamics play a complex and unavoidable role"), but ultimately Marco, who is a rich straight white male unaffected by any meaningful or existential prejudice, is willing to overlook those views (which do not impact him) as things that do not matter.
TimTheTinker 28d ago
> what if your neighbor's political views are an existential threat to you personally? Then you are uniquely placed to show them you're not the baddie they thought you were. Say hello, introduce yourself, smile and wave, bring cookies or stuff from your backyard garden once in a while, be personable.
- hackyhacky 28d ago
  > Then you are uniquely placed to show them you're not the baddie they thought you were. Great idea! If only we had thought of this sooner. We could have avoided Jim Crow and segregation if only black people had thought to be friendly to racist whites! /s
  - user982 28d ago
    Remember: the onus is always on you to prove that you're one of the "good ones" by coddling them.
  - TimTheTinker 28d ago
    If you're in physical danger, then flee. I'm not talking about that. There's a bigger reality than your street - pay attention and be wise. But at the same time, it is true than many white kids had racist parents but chose not to be racist themselves, largely because they rubbed shoulders with black kids and learned they had a lot in common with them. Don't underestimate the power of patience, kindness, generosity, and general personability to win, eventually. It took a generation of integration before racism disappeared from most US neighborhoods.
    - hackyhacky 28d ago
      > It took a generation of integration before racism disappeared from most US neighborhoods. I'm still waiting
      - TimTheTinker 28d ago
        Do you have racist neighbors? If so, I'm curious which county you live in. Two of my grandparents were racist, but I haven't talked personally with a racist in probably 25-30 years.
chmod775 28d ago
What if you were friendly with your neighbor, but on the way to return a shovel you get hit by a bus? Point being: you're dreaming up edge cases, presumably as a justification for... what? Refusing to engage with people who don't wear their political views like a badge on their chest? If your stance honestly is "we cannot be friends unless I know your political views", then those who keep their views to themselves in the face of that are wise.
- hackyhacky 28d ago
  > you're dreaming up edge cases Xenophobia and racial (or religious ) animus are hardly edge cases. On the contrary, they are the default setting for our species, as evidenced by (flips through history book) the last few millennia.
  - machomaster 28d ago
    Bigotry is innate and one has to fight it. And that's exactly chmod775's point - stop being a bigot towards other people's reasonable opinions, stop being dramatic, stop making a mountain out of a molehill.
    - hackyhacky 28d ago
      > stop being a bigot towards other people's reasonable opinions I welcome all reasonable opinions. But not all opinions are reasonable. In particular, the Maga crowd favors opinions based on hero-worship credulity and irrational vibes, completely divorced from factual reality. Very often, this leads to a place of xenophibia and bigotry, which no one is obligated to tolerate. Just look at the "conservative" "arguments" in this thread. Just a chain of non-sequiturs and preconceived biases.
    - hackyhacky 26d ago
      The word "bigotry" actually has a meaning. Trying to equate "unjustified hate against a person for their skin color, ethnicity, or religion" with "distaste for a set of chosen political opinions" is a hoot.
deleted 28d ago
[deleted]
logicallee 28d ago
[flagged]
api 28d ago
I get this but there’s this thing called the contact hypothesis. Friendly contact with people makes it harder to hate them. I’ve heard many stories of people who were once racists or some other kind of bigot losing that attitude from living close to people of the other ethnic group. It’s common. It’s a major hypothesis for why xenophobia is more popular in rural areas: lack of contact with out groups. But if you instantly call someone out for their views, condemn them, take a self righteous position, that doesn’t happen. It might even have the opposite effect. So maybe let the bigot next door borrow some eggs. Smile at them. But make sure they know it if you’re one of the people their dogma or emotional conditioning says they’re supposed to hate. Might change someone’s mind every now and then. It’s also important to note that people often don’t change their minds quickly. Seeds get planted. Experiences that contradict a dogma or an unexamined conditioned attitude are noted. The brain slowly updates its priors.
thm76 26d ago
I would extend that to what if their views are an existential threat to anybody. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came

jonhohle 28d ago

Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. And realize that your hangups, quirks, and beliefs are just as offensive to them as theirs are to yours but that doesn’t mean either one of you is. Or a good neighbor that can’t crack a beer and just live next door to one another.

hackyhacky 28d ago
> Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. You would have liked my grandmother, who shared your opinion that kindness between neighbors can heal political rifts. Unfortunately it didn't work out so well for her, as despite her kindness, the neighbors sent her to Dachau anyway.
- jonhohle 28d ago
  Once again with the implication that conservatives are equivalent to Nazis and therefore should be treated with vitriol. The hyperbole isn’t unwarranted and the whole point.
  - hackyhacky 28d ago
    That's not the implication. Read it again, stop playing the victim. The point is simply that hate is not rational, and that your proposal of kindness does nothing to assuage the rampant ignorance and xenophobia that animates evil ideology. Would you prefer a Communist rather than Nazi parable? Either way works.
    - TimTheTinker 28d ago
      > evil ideology Does exist and should be labeled as such. But it's also always been a term that evil political movements use to label those who oppose their ideas. Let the wise be discerning. Not all is as it appears on the surface or is reported to be.
      - hackyhacky 28d ago
        > Not all is as it appears on the surface or is reported to be. Are you literally asking for a moral re-evaluaion of fascism?
        TimTheTinker 28d ago
        Heck no. Hitler and Mussolini were deeply evil and their ideology was too. But there's nothing like them happening today.
        hackyhacky 28d ago
        > But there's nothing like them happening today. <rolls eyes> https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-president-and-constitutional-violations-will-the-federal-courts-contain-the-presidents-power-grabs/ https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-president-and-c...
        deleted 25d ago
        [deleted]
      - 28d ago
- machomaster 28d ago
  Was it really her neighbors that sent her there or a police/military? I very much doubt that. But let's play the hypothetical. - Would your grandmother's fate be better if instead of kindness she would be spewing vitriol? Don't think so, the situation would have been even worse, much faster. - What about the other side of the coin - about all of those people, who survived, because they were nice and friendly? - In general, always having the same strategy, no matter what is happening around you, is dumb. When the environment changes, so should the behavior. Kindness often helps, but not against wild animals like bears, nature forces like tornadoes, and the faceless state bureucracy.
  - hackyhacky 28d ago
    > Would your grandmother's fate be better if instead of kindness she would be spewing vitriol? "Spewing vitriol" is loaded language used to smear people you disagree with. The fact is that during the Nazi regime, some people did speak out against the atrocities, and some people did fight back. More people should have. Those who did resist would certainly have been described as "spewing vitriol" by those in power. I wish my grandmother was that brave. > What about the other side of the coin - about all of those people, who survived, because they were nice and friendly? Some things are more important than surviving.
santoshalper 28d ago
This is just sentimental nonsense. You are not obligated to patronize or be friendly to evil people.
- jonhohle 28d ago
  > evil people Your conservative neighbor is no more evil than someone who thinks their conservative neighbor is evil because they are conservative.
  - hackyhacky 28d ago
    You said: > Your conservative neighbor is no more evil than someone who thinks their conservative neighbor is evil because they are conservative. In response this: > This is just sentimental nonsense. You are not obligated to patronize or be friendly to evil people. Why do you assume that "evil" == "conservative" here?
    - jonhohle 28d ago
      Inferred based on OP and other comments from parent. Works the same way reverse.
      - hackyhacky 28d ago
        Incorrect inference. You're so eager to achieve victim status that you've totally missed the point.
knodi123 28d ago
I don't want to sound hyperbolic, but what if you were a jew, and you applied that reasoning to your hitler-loving neighbors back in nazi germany? Modern politics is fundamentally different from the way things used to be. The right-wing political parties in america today have almost nothing at their core besides hatred for marginalized communities. Demonizing trans people, immigrants, muslims, "communists"- that's it. Everything else is just the whims of an impulsive imbecile - the tariffs, the war with Iran, kidnapping the president of Venezuela, the belligerence towards _greenland_ (?!?!?), etc... And the purpose behind demonizing them it to energize a shrinking demographic base to compensate for how many reasonable people they've driven away. So at this point, the ones who remain under the maga umbrella have been exposed to so much vitriolic propaganda that they are just at a fever pitch of hatred at all times. I've seen it countless times in my own life- People who used to say that Obama was naive and inexperienced and that his policies were misguided, but who now say he's a muslim jihadi who wanted to destroy america. And so on with many other political issues. I have several close relatives who used to be like bob, or van- but MAGA has changed them. They are just completely dripping with hate, now. And if I was a member of one of the communities they've been frothed up against, I don't know if I'd feel safe trying to engage with them like the person on the OP.

user982 28d ago

The essay makes a token gesture toward this ("privilege and power dynamics play a complex and unavoidable role"), but ultimately Marco, who is a rich straight white male unaffected by any meaningful or existential prejudice, is willing to overlook those views (which do not impact him) as things that do not matter.

TimTheTinker 28d ago

> what if your neighbor's political views are an existential threat to you personally? Then you are uniquely placed to show them you're not the baddie they thought you were. Say hello, introduce yourself, smile and wave, bring cookies or stuff from your backyard garden once in a while, be personable.

hackyhacky 28d ago
> Then you are uniquely placed to show them you're not the baddie they thought you were. Great idea! If only we had thought of this sooner. We could have avoided Jim Crow and segregation if only black people had thought to be friendly to racist whites! /s
- user982 28d ago
  Remember: the onus is always on you to prove that you're one of the "good ones" by coddling them.
- TimTheTinker 28d ago
  If you're in physical danger, then flee. I'm not talking about that. There's a bigger reality than your street - pay attention and be wise. But at the same time, it is true than many white kids had racist parents but chose not to be racist themselves, largely because they rubbed shoulders with black kids and learned they had a lot in common with them. Don't underestimate the power of patience, kindness, generosity, and general personability to win, eventually. It took a generation of integration before racism disappeared from most US neighborhoods.
  - hackyhacky 28d ago
    > It took a generation of integration before racism disappeared from most US neighborhoods. I'm still waiting
    - TimTheTinker 28d ago
      Do you have racist neighbors? If so, I'm curious which county you live in. Two of my grandparents were racist, but I haven't talked personally with a racist in probably 25-30 years.

chmod775 28d ago

What if you were friendly with your neighbor, but on the way to return a shovel you get hit by a bus? Point being: you're dreaming up edge cases, presumably as a justification for... what? Refusing to engage with people who don't wear their political views like a badge on their chest? If your stance honestly is "we cannot be friends unless I know your political views", then those who keep their views to themselves in the face of that are wise.

hackyhacky 28d ago
> you're dreaming up edge cases Xenophobia and racial (or religious ) animus are hardly edge cases. On the contrary, they are the default setting for our species, as evidenced by (flips through history book) the last few millennia.
- machomaster 28d ago
  Bigotry is innate and one has to fight it. And that's exactly chmod775's point - stop being a bigot towards other people's reasonable opinions, stop being dramatic, stop making a mountain out of a molehill.
  - hackyhacky 28d ago
    > stop being a bigot towards other people's reasonable opinions I welcome all reasonable opinions. But not all opinions are reasonable. In particular, the Maga crowd favors opinions based on hero-worship credulity and irrational vibes, completely divorced from factual reality. Very often, this leads to a place of xenophibia and bigotry, which no one is obligated to tolerate. Just look at the "conservative" "arguments" in this thread. Just a chain of non-sequiturs and preconceived biases.
  - hackyhacky 26d ago
    The word "bigotry" actually has a meaning. Trying to equate "unjustified hate against a person for their skin color, ethnicity, or religion" with "distaste for a set of chosen political opinions" is a hoot.

deleted 28d ago

[deleted]

logicallee 28d ago

[flagged]

api 28d ago

I get this but there’s this thing called the contact hypothesis. Friendly contact with people makes it harder to hate them. I’ve heard many stories of people who were once racists or some other kind of bigot losing that attitude from living close to people of the other ethnic group. It’s common. It’s a major hypothesis for why xenophobia is more popular in rural areas: lack of contact with out groups. But if you instantly call someone out for their views, condemn them, take a self righteous position, that doesn’t happen. It might even have the opposite effect. So maybe let the bigot next door borrow some eggs. Smile at them. But make sure they know it if you’re one of the people their dogma or emotional conditioning says they’re supposed to hate. Might change someone’s mind every now and then. It’s also important to note that people often don’t change their minds quickly. Seeds get planted. Experiences that contradict a dogma or an unexamined conditioned attitude are noted. The brain slowly updates its priors.

thm76 26d ago

I would extend that to what if their views are an existential threat to anybody. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_They_Came