5 ms·

Bob and Van

44 points by Tomte 1mo ago

spiderfarmer 1mo ago
This is such a uniquely US thing. Maybe the healthier past wasn’t one where nobody talked about politics. Maybe it was one where disagreeing about politics didn’t automatically make someone your enemy. As someone from the Netherlands, I find this especially strange. You can call the leader of the party your neighbour voted for every name under the sun, preferably involving some kind of disease, because that’s our style, and still have a beer together afterwards.
- PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
  In all likelihood, that leader of the party your neighbor voted for does not hold views that you consider an existential threat to yourself, or those you love. I say this because you live in (or are from) NL, and while there is certainly a range of political views there, compared to the US you may as well all be in the same party. Try having a beer with someone who thinks your daughter in law should have her drivers license revoked because she "lied about being a woman", in a society where a drivers license is a critical part of life.
  - drcongo 1mo ago
    Have you ever heard of Geert Wilders?
    - PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
      I have indeed. I think that the gap between the MAGA crowd and, say, Santa Fe progressives, is much deeper than the one between Wilders and some progressive NL equivalent. It might be as wide, but depth matters too. The USA contains a lot of people who simply don't agree that the government has much of a role to play in anything. Wilders might sound quite MAGA in a number of areas, but he's still a Nederlander.
cja 1mo ago
Thought this would be a cool story about Dylan and Morrison :(
user982 1mo ago
From the timing, this seems to be a vaguepost in support of Omarchy and DHH.
- object-a 1mo ago
  Which would be a strange defense. DHH is not someone who keeps his political views to himself.
  - user982 1mo ago
    The crux of this post is that even publicly stated political views like DHH's shouldn't matter. "If I learn today that my neighbors have political views that my “side” considers unacceptable and unforgivable, [...] Should I be condemned for not publicly condemning them myself? [...] I don’t want to associate with any community that would insist on either of those. [...] "The town coffee shop was just a coffee shop. We weren’t publicly shamed for going there because one of the owners was an ass."
- rhinoceraptor 1mo ago
  I would shocked if it was, Accidental Tech Podcast is not a political show but they don't hide the fact that all three hosts are very liberal.
  - user982 1mo ago
    Assume for the moment that he did not have DHH in mind, and the timing of the post is coincidental. Is there some way of reading the moral of his story such that it is not defending projects and people like Omarchy/DHH against criticism?
spenczar5 1mo ago
This is still the case today, if you let it be. I am friends with many neighbors with differing views from my own and literally do have them over for dinner, invite them to my toddlers' birthday parties, etc. I don't recognize the things the author describes here - awareness of hot takes, opinions about coffee shop owners... they strike me as features of the online world, but not the offline one I inhabit.
duck 1mo ago
It is still like this in most neighborhoods in the US, but it does require being outside and actually talking to them... which does seem rarer today.
swazzy 1mo ago
Too bad Marco quit Twitter, I enjoyed following him.
- mulderc 1mo ago
  You can follow him other places. I believe he is active on mastodon.
tancop 1mo ago
I'm a pretty left wing person. Most of my friends are a lot more conservative. We can talk anything including politics and disagree without breaking apart our relationship. Last night out it was abortion and Lindsay Clancy, before that colonialism, race/IQ and labor rights. I guess it helps that we all think the people in power right now are corrupt. If your friendships can't handle a debate that's a skill issue.
- jonhohle 1mo ago
  In my experience it’s not the conservatives who end relationships over disagreements. In fact, I’ve never heard of a conservative kid disowning their parents, family, or friends because of their liberal views.
  - hackyhacky 1mo ago
    Never heard of a "Christian" parent kicking out their gay son? Never heard a "conservative" call a protester a "libtard" right before rolling coal at them? Never heard of a friendly Southern town doing anything they can to keep out people of the wrong skin color, or to encourage them to leave? Oh. Maybe you should read some history and not rely on your personal anecdata.
    - jonhohle 1mo ago
      Nope. I haven’t seen any of those things personally. Have you? I have personally seen family members disown their parents. Siblings not speak for decades. A friend call another racist and cut off communication not for any racist behavior, but because the friend (who has a multiracial family) didn’t support the same cause. And likewise, maybe you should experience the real world instead of believing sensationalized things you read.
      - hackyhacky 1mo ago
        > Nope. I haven’t seen any of those things personally I didn't ask if you saw those things personally. > And likewise, maybe you should experience the real world instead of believing sensationalized things you read. Do you think the Jim Crow era was "sensationalized"? Do you think that your own personal experience is more representative than documented historical fact?
AprilArcus 1mo ago
This sounds nice, but what if your neighbor's political views are an existential threat to you personally? What if they don't want you to live in their neighborhood because of the color of your skin, or if they don't think you're a fit parent because you let your kid wear certain clothes? There are some things about which we can have friendly disagreements, like Laffer curves, school vouchers, the death penalty, environmental regulations, or whatever. But there are other disagreements which mean we cannot be friends.
- jonhohle 1mo ago
  Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. And realize that your hangups, quirks, and beliefs are just as offensive to them as theirs are to yours but that doesn’t mean either one of you is. Or a good neighbor that can’t crack a beer and just live next door to one another.
  - hackyhacky 1mo ago
    > Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. You would have liked my grandmother, who shared your opinion that kindness between neighbors can heal political rifts. Unfortunately it didn't work out so well for her, as despite her kindness, the neighbors sent her to Dachau anyway.
    - jonhohle 1mo ago
      Once again with the implication that conservatives are equivalent to Nazis and therefore should be treated with vitriol. The hyperbole isn’t unwarranted and the whole point.
      - hackyhacky 1mo ago
jdauriemma 1mo ago
I struggle with this. Where I live, it's harder nowadays to compartmentalize how someone votes from their core values. What we used to call "politics" now encompasses some fundamental aspects of how we observe and process our daily lives.
- mkozlows 1mo ago
  It always did, we just had the norm that in a liberal democracy, we put that to the side for our dealings with people. Same thing as religion -- a huge deal that shapes people's values and attitudes about the most core aspects of life -- and there was a norm of "no politics or religion" in polite conversation.
- RussianBot9580 1mo ago
  It might help to realize that this is a uniquely American affliction. People almost anywhere else simply don't consider politics (or race or gender for that matter) to be nearly as important. This would then let you see your neighbors as people. What you claim are core values are nothing of the sort. They are misconceptions invented by your in-group to dehumanize the out-group. In reality people's core values are: their kids, their health, love, belonging, a sense of purpose. The rest is just a puppet master hijacking these core values for organizing a crowd.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
    Counterpoint: what you want to claim are core values are actually window dressing to hide how people see the out-group. Who doesn't "love their kids" or fall in love, or want a sense of belonging (ok, a few), or a sense of purpose (ok, a few more). These are not statements about anyone's core values, they're statements about what it is to be human. Core values are about how you treat people who are NOT close to you, how you believe limited resources should be allocated, how and by whom you think decisions should be made, what the relationship between individuals and society ought to be, and specifically between individuals and government.
    - 1mo ago
jonhohle 1mo ago
> And I can’t help but feel that maybe we were better off before we knew everyone’s hot takes on everything He says this, while implying his conservative neighbors, who did nothing but be wonderful neighbors to him and his family except have different political opinions, should, in fact be publicly shamed by people he agrees with. But now they’re not shoveling his snow anymore, so maybe it’s time for a mea culpa. Did he feel this way when he shamed Y Combinator? When saying alternative political stances are reprehensible, regressive, and aggressive. The world he helped create is uglier. Now he’s not happy that he crapped in the sandbox and no one wants to play with him.
- boulos 1mo ago
  I think you misread the post. He's saying that his ignorance was great, and maybe we should go back towards that. I don't think Tumblr was particularly influential on the neighbors aspect. It never reached that kind of broad base. Twitter did though. Unless you just mean social media broadly?
  - jonhohle 1mo ago
    It wasn’t ignorance, but tolerance. I wasn’t referring to social media or his role in it at all except as a participant.
- drcongo 1mo ago
  Won't somebody think of the Y Combinator!
  - jonhohle 1mo ago
    It was a case relevant to this audience where he attacked a group due to their perceived political affiliation or views. I could have less about YC except it provides one do the last social news sites that I find consistently high signal.
anon7725 1mo ago
Bob and Van didn't make you aware of their political views within a few minutes of meeting them. They didn't put a sign in their front yard or a bumper sticker on their vehicle. They weren't wearing any particular apparel. You didn't notice them in the town's Facebook group making their opinions crystal clear. It's much different in a world where people make their political views their whole identity.
- boxed 1mo ago
  It's also a bit ironic, since Marco has a pride flag with the trans additions flying from his house. So is this blog post him coming to realize he's a part of the problem or...?
  - rhinoceraptor 1mo ago
    He lives on Fire Island, that's about as political as flying the American flag in Orange County.
  - spiderfarmer 1mo ago
    The problem is not showing what you stand for. The problem is that your political system only offers two options. And then all that’s left is game theory.
  - thrance 1mo ago
    Yeah, how dare he make such a statement as "trans people exist and deserve rights"? This is equally as offensive as the other side's position of "trans people are all mentally ill, they should be ostracized and made as miserable as possible"! I'm tired of pretending this is a "both sides" issue. One side, and one side only, is diving further and further in their hatred of blacks, gays, trans, women, progressives, you-name-it. Progressives haven't changed their tunes, they're still on equal rights and public healthcare, as they have been for decades. It's on conservatives to do some introspection, and ask themselves why their views have become so toxic that the world is slowly distancing themselves from their country, now that their guy is in office.
iamnothere 1mo ago
I think the key differentiator today is the silent mental health crisis that’s gripped this country. Until you know them well, it’s hard to know if your neighbor is secretly part of a weird Discord server where obsessive people lord over random strangers for internet clout. You really don’t want to inadvertently become the day’s “main character” somehow by giving the wrong “vibes” or being unaware of the latest taboo. It used to be easier to tell when someone was a nutjob based on their appearance, but these days not so much. It’s still good to get to know your neighbors, but some caution is warranted.
jauntywundrkind 1mo ago
I mostly roll my eyes but it seems like there's so much fretting over echo chambers... when we are online. Only online. But this post is anecdotal example of IRL being a wicked echo chamber, a place where we stay within our bubbles and avoid finding out and avoid sharing our world or regional views. I think it's good to exchange views on the world. That's a stronger better species, society. People receive different information, and talking about the world and what events we see and what they mean to us helps broaden that base and provide context. A lot of it is bad wrong and annoying. I want to hope though that socialization and seeing that oh we are humans together is a great relief for many of the narrownesses that afflict our hearts and souls and which cause strife, which is terrible for our welfare economically, socially, spiritually, politically.
bensyverson 1mo ago
For context, this post seems to be a reaction to MacStories deciding to return to X [0], which has been quite controversial in the Apple developer community. There has been the predictable blowback, then the blowback to the blowback, which he alludes to in the post: "should I be condemned for not publicly condemning them myself?" [1] Ultimately, everyone needs to do what's workable. If you find X's owner repugnant but you feel you need to be on the platform, that's a choice you have to make. If your audience revolts, that's a consequence of the choice. Each audience member also has to do what's workable for them. There is no "right" or "wrong" response. [0]: https://ticci.craft.me/explanation https://ticci.craft.me/explanation [1]: TFA
recursivedoubts 1mo ago
I intentionally try to foster friendships with all sort of different people with obviously different political positions. Many of them are very far left and very far right and very far in a third direction i have trouble articulating, in ways that would shock most normal people. What I have found is that, accepting the inevitable human flaws that we are all prone to, they are all pretty good folks.
mulderc 1mo ago
This is a post that only a straight middle-aged white guy could make. I’m also a white middle-aged guy, but being in a same-sex interracial marriage really opens your eyes to the reality of living in America. Also, there was a time when your neighbors’ politics probably didn’t want to strip you and your family of their rights and citizenship; times have changed a bit.
deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
mikewarot 1mo ago
This is the result of a bi-partisan effort[0], to divide the country, and keep our focus away from the concerns of the donor class. First, Ronald Reagan's adviser Lee Atwater[1], advocated for the use of wedge issues, such as the mythical "Welfare Queen"[2], to erode support for the social safety net. Reagan's FCC commission decided end the Fairness Doctrine[3], which helped maintain the public consensus in the mainstream. In my strong opinion, it was a huge mistake, along with Trickle down economics. However, considering the traitorous nature of Reagan's administration[4,5], I guess it's to be expected. Hillary and Bill Clinton went along with things, and came up with the strategy of "Triangulation"[6], in which they used wedge issues as a way of staking out a political position, without actually needing to care for their base. This resulted in a wave of virtue signaling[7] and political correctness[8], and an end to actual support of the social safety net. Examples of this include "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" as official policy in the US Military.[9] When Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz rigged the 2016 Democratic Primary[10], they shunted the backlash against all of this that Bernie Sanders was channeling, and gave us Donald Trump, who is a master of exploiting it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine#Revocation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine#Revocation [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_October_Surprise_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_October_Surprise_theory [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(politics) [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell [10] https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-b...

44 points by Tomte 1mo ago

This is such a uniquely US thing. Maybe the healthier past wasn’t one where nobody talked about politics. Maybe it was one where disagreeing about politics didn’t automatically make someone your enemy. As someone from the Netherlands, I find this especially strange. You can call the leader of the party your neighbour voted for every name under the sun, preferably involving some kind of disease, because that’s our style, and still have a beer together afterwards.

PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
In all likelihood, that leader of the party your neighbor voted for does not hold views that you consider an existential threat to yourself, or those you love. I say this because you live in (or are from) NL, and while there is certainly a range of political views there, compared to the US you may as well all be in the same party. Try having a beer with someone who thinks your daughter in law should have her drivers license revoked because she "lied about being a woman", in a society where a drivers license is a critical part of life.
- drcongo 1mo ago
  Have you ever heard of Geert Wilders?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
    I have indeed. I think that the gap between the MAGA crowd and, say, Santa Fe progressives, is much deeper than the one between Wilders and some progressive NL equivalent. It might be as wide, but depth matters too. The USA contains a lot of people who simply don't agree that the government has much of a role to play in anything. Wilders might sound quite MAGA in a number of areas, but he's still a Nederlander.

cja 1mo ago

Thought this would be a cool story about Dylan and Morrison :(

user982 1mo ago

From the timing, this seems to be a vaguepost in support of Omarchy and DHH.

object-a 1mo ago
Which would be a strange defense. DHH is not someone who keeps his political views to himself.
- user982 1mo ago
  The crux of this post is that even publicly stated political views like DHH's shouldn't matter. "If I learn today that my neighbors have political views that my “side” considers unacceptable and unforgivable, [...] Should I be condemned for not publicly condemning them myself? [...] I don’t want to associate with any community that would insist on either of those. [...] "The town coffee shop was just a coffee shop. We weren’t publicly shamed for going there because one of the owners was an ass."
rhinoceraptor 1mo ago
I would shocked if it was, Accidental Tech Podcast is not a political show but they don't hide the fact that all three hosts are very liberal.
- user982 1mo ago
  Assume for the moment that he did not have DHH in mind, and the timing of the post is coincidental. Is there some way of reading the moral of his story such that it is not defending projects and people like Omarchy/DHH against criticism?

spenczar5 1mo ago

This is still the case today, if you let it be. I am friends with many neighbors with differing views from my own and literally do have them over for dinner, invite them to my toddlers' birthday parties, etc. I don't recognize the things the author describes here - awareness of hot takes, opinions about coffee shop owners... they strike me as features of the online world, but not the offline one I inhabit.

duck 1mo ago

It is still like this in most neighborhoods in the US, but it does require being outside and actually talking to them... which does seem rarer today.

swazzy 1mo ago

Too bad Marco quit Twitter, I enjoyed following him.

mulderc 1mo ago
You can follow him other places. I believe he is active on mastodon.

tancop 1mo ago

I'm a pretty left wing person. Most of my friends are a lot more conservative. We can talk anything including politics and disagree without breaking apart our relationship. Last night out it was abortion and Lindsay Clancy, before that colonialism, race/IQ and labor rights. I guess it helps that we all think the people in power right now are corrupt. If your friendships can't handle a debate that's a skill issue.

jonhohle 1mo ago
In my experience it’s not the conservatives who end relationships over disagreements. In fact, I’ve never heard of a conservative kid disowning their parents, family, or friends because of their liberal views.
- hackyhacky 1mo ago
  Never heard of a "Christian" parent kicking out their gay son? Never heard a "conservative" call a protester a "libtard" right before rolling coal at them? Never heard of a friendly Southern town doing anything they can to keep out people of the wrong skin color, or to encourage them to leave? Oh. Maybe you should read some history and not rely on your personal anecdata.
  - jonhohle 1mo ago
    Nope. I haven’t seen any of those things personally. Have you? I have personally seen family members disown their parents. Siblings not speak for decades. A friend call another racist and cut off communication not for any racist behavior, but because the friend (who has a multiracial family) didn’t support the same cause. And likewise, maybe you should experience the real world instead of believing sensationalized things you read.
    - hackyhacky 1mo ago
      > Nope. I haven’t seen any of those things personally I didn't ask if you saw those things personally. > And likewise, maybe you should experience the real world instead of believing sensationalized things you read. Do you think the Jim Crow era was "sensationalized"? Do you think that your own personal experience is more representative than documented historical fact?

AprilArcus 1mo ago

This sounds nice, but what if your neighbor's political views are an existential threat to you personally? What if they don't want you to live in their neighborhood because of the color of your skin, or if they don't think you're a fit parent because you let your kid wear certain clothes? There are some things about which we can have friendly disagreements, like Laffer curves, school vouchers, the death penalty, environmental regulations, or whatever. But there are other disagreements which mean we cannot be friends.

jonhohle 1mo ago
Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. And realize that your hangups, quirks, and beliefs are just as offensive to them as theirs are to yours but that doesn’t mean either one of you is. Or a good neighbor that can’t crack a beer and just live next door to one another.
- hackyhacky 1mo ago
  > Then you live next to them and let them borrow a cup of sugar or ask to borrow one from them and collect their mail while they’re away and thank them when they let you know you left a light on when you left for work the other day. You would have liked my grandmother, who shared your opinion that kindness between neighbors can heal political rifts. Unfortunately it didn't work out so well for her, as despite her kindness, the neighbors sent her to Dachau anyway.
  - jonhohle 1mo ago
    Once again with the implication that conservatives are equivalent to Nazis and therefore should be treated with vitriol. The hyperbole isn’t unwarranted and the whole point.
    - hackyhacky 1mo ago

jdauriemma 1mo ago

I struggle with this. Where I live, it's harder nowadays to compartmentalize how someone votes from their core values. What we used to call "politics" now encompasses some fundamental aspects of how we observe and process our daily lives.

mkozlows 1mo ago
It always did, we just had the norm that in a liberal democracy, we put that to the side for our dealings with people. Same thing as religion -- a huge deal that shapes people's values and attitudes about the most core aspects of life -- and there was a norm of "no politics or religion" in polite conversation.
RussianBot9580 1mo ago
It might help to realize that this is a uniquely American affliction. People almost anywhere else simply don't consider politics (or race or gender for that matter) to be nearly as important. This would then let you see your neighbors as people. What you claim are core values are nothing of the sort. They are misconceptions invented by your in-group to dehumanize the out-group. In reality people's core values are: their kids, their health, love, belonging, a sense of purpose. The rest is just a puppet master hijacking these core values for organizing a crowd.
- PaulDavisThe1st 1mo ago
  Counterpoint: what you want to claim are core values are actually window dressing to hide how people see the out-group. Who doesn't "love their kids" or fall in love, or want a sense of belonging (ok, a few), or a sense of purpose (ok, a few more). These are not statements about anyone's core values, they're statements about what it is to be human. Core values are about how you treat people who are NOT close to you, how you believe limited resources should be allocated, how and by whom you think decisions should be made, what the relationship between individuals and society ought to be, and specifically between individuals and government.
  - 1mo ago

jonhohle 1mo ago

> And I can’t help but feel that maybe we were better off before we knew everyone’s hot takes on everything He says this, while implying his conservative neighbors, who did nothing but be wonderful neighbors to him and his family except have different political opinions, should, in fact be publicly shamed by people he agrees with. But now they’re not shoveling his snow anymore, so maybe it’s time for a mea culpa. Did he feel this way when he shamed Y Combinator? When saying alternative political stances are reprehensible, regressive, and aggressive. The world he helped create is uglier. Now he’s not happy that he crapped in the sandbox and no one wants to play with him.

boulos 1mo ago
I think you misread the post. He's saying that his ignorance was great, and maybe we should go back towards that. I don't think Tumblr was particularly influential on the neighbors aspect. It never reached that kind of broad base. Twitter did though. Unless you just mean social media broadly?
- jonhohle 1mo ago
  It wasn’t ignorance, but tolerance. I wasn’t referring to social media or his role in it at all except as a participant.
drcongo 1mo ago
Won't somebody think of the Y Combinator!
- jonhohle 1mo ago
  It was a case relevant to this audience where he attacked a group due to their perceived political affiliation or views. I could have less about YC except it provides one do the last social news sites that I find consistently high signal.

anon7725 1mo ago

Bob and Van didn't make you aware of their political views within a few minutes of meeting them. They didn't put a sign in their front yard or a bumper sticker on their vehicle. They weren't wearing any particular apparel. You didn't notice them in the town's Facebook group making their opinions crystal clear. It's much different in a world where people make their political views their whole identity.

boxed 1mo ago
It's also a bit ironic, since Marco has a pride flag with the trans additions flying from his house. So is this blog post him coming to realize he's a part of the problem or...?
- rhinoceraptor 1mo ago
  He lives on Fire Island, that's about as political as flying the American flag in Orange County.
- spiderfarmer 1mo ago
  The problem is not showing what you stand for. The problem is that your political system only offers two options. And then all that’s left is game theory.
- thrance 1mo ago
  Yeah, how dare he make such a statement as "trans people exist and deserve rights"? This is equally as offensive as the other side's position of "trans people are all mentally ill, they should be ostracized and made as miserable as possible"! I'm tired of pretending this is a "both sides" issue. One side, and one side only, is diving further and further in their hatred of blacks, gays, trans, women, progressives, you-name-it. Progressives haven't changed their tunes, they're still on equal rights and public healthcare, as they have been for decades. It's on conservatives to do some introspection, and ask themselves why their views have become so toxic that the world is slowly distancing themselves from their country, now that their guy is in office.

iamnothere 1mo ago

I think the key differentiator today is the silent mental health crisis that’s gripped this country. Until you know them well, it’s hard to know if your neighbor is secretly part of a weird Discord server where obsessive people lord over random strangers for internet clout. You really don’t want to inadvertently become the day’s “main character” somehow by giving the wrong “vibes” or being unaware of the latest taboo. It used to be easier to tell when someone was a nutjob based on their appearance, but these days not so much. It’s still good to get to know your neighbors, but some caution is warranted.

jauntywundrkind 1mo ago

I mostly roll my eyes but it seems like there's so much fretting over echo chambers... when we are online. Only online. But this post is anecdotal example of IRL being a wicked echo chamber, a place where we stay within our bubbles and avoid finding out and avoid sharing our world or regional views. I think it's good to exchange views on the world. That's a stronger better species, society. People receive different information, and talking about the world and what events we see and what they mean to us helps broaden that base and provide context. A lot of it is bad wrong and annoying. I want to hope though that socialization and seeing that oh we are humans together is a great relief for many of the narrownesses that afflict our hearts and souls and which cause strife, which is terrible for our welfare economically, socially, spiritually, politically.

bensyverson 1mo ago

For context, this post seems to be a reaction to MacStories deciding to return to X [0], which has been quite controversial in the Apple developer community. There has been the predictable blowback, then the blowback to the blowback, which he alludes to in the post: "should I be condemned for not publicly condemning them myself?" [1] Ultimately, everyone needs to do what's workable. If you find X's owner repugnant but you feel you need to be on the platform, that's a choice you have to make. If your audience revolts, that's a consequence of the choice. Each audience member also has to do what's workable for them. There is no "right" or "wrong" response. [0]: https://ticci.craft.me/explanation https://ticci.craft.me/explanation [1]: TFA

recursivedoubts 1mo ago

I intentionally try to foster friendships with all sort of different people with obviously different political positions. Many of them are very far left and very far right and very far in a third direction i have trouble articulating, in ways that would shock most normal people. What I have found is that, accepting the inevitable human flaws that we are all prone to, they are all pretty good folks.

mulderc 1mo ago

This is a post that only a straight middle-aged white guy could make. I’m also a white middle-aged guy, but being in a same-sex interracial marriage really opens your eyes to the reality of living in America. Also, there was a time when your neighbors’ politics probably didn’t want to strip you and your family of their rights and citizenship; times have changed a bit.

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

mikewarot 1mo ago

This is the result of a bi-partisan effort[0], to divide the country, and keep our focus away from the concerns of the donor class. First, Ronald Reagan's adviser Lee Atwater[1], advocated for the use of wedge issues, such as the mythical "Welfare Queen"[2], to erode support for the social safety net. Reagan's FCC commission decided end the Fairness Doctrine[3], which helped maintain the public consensus in the mainstream. In my strong opinion, it was a huge mistake, along with Trickle down economics. However, considering the traitorous nature of Reagan's administration[4,5], I guess it's to be expected. Hillary and Bill Clinton went along with things, and came up with the strategy of "Triangulation"[6], in which they used wedge issues as a way of staking out a political position, without actually needing to care for their base. This resulted in a wave of virtue signaling[7] and political correctness[8], and an end to actual support of the social safety net. Examples of this include "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" as official policy in the US Military.[9] When Hillary Clinton and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz rigged the 2016 Democratic Primary[10], they shunted the backlash against all of this that Bernie Sanders was channeling, and gave us Donald Trump, who is a master of exploiting it. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Atwater [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_queen [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine#Revocation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_doctrine#Revocation [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_October_Surprise_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_October_Surprise_theory [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(politics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulation_(politics) [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_signalling [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_ask,_don%27t_tell [10] https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-brazile-hacks-2016-215774/ https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/02/clinton-b...