4 ms·

The author of this article needs to hit the books--yesterday. The conditions she describes as 'perversity' is just the heightened response of an over-stressed

• strken 2mo ago
  I have the impression you could be confusing suicidality with the little voice that says "what if I stuck my finger in the candle wax?" or "what if I forgot to put on clothes before going to work?" and only mentions tall buildings once or twice a year. I'm pretty sure the latter is really common. I've always thought it was my brain generating failure cases for risk assessment. We think "What if I dropped this bottle of water on my lap while driving and crashed?" and then we take more care not to drop it.
  • kranner 2mo ago
    GP mentions concurrent extreme stress and multiple variations of suicidal ideation, along with a prediction of the relief that would bring. Also, that the thoughts stopped once the stress did. Not sure how they could describe suicidality more clearly. Speaking as someone who has also experienced it due to chronic health conditions that had gotten particularly bad for a while.
    • strken 2mo ago
      Yes, and I'm saying that is clearly suicidality, but I think TFA is talking about something else.
      • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
        How do you draw the line between the two? It might start off with self-sabotage and end up in suicidal thoughts-- but also, maybe self-sabotage is yet another way to cope with extreme stress? Given that Poe had chronic stressors (financial, for one), maybe his drinking and self-sabotage were the kind of responses his brain would generate. Even though he himself calls them "perversity", it doesn't negate the fact that he was experiencing severe brain damage due to the constant stress. The TFA also elevates Freud into the discussion, but most if not all of Freudian ideas have been empirically refuted (thanks to the new advances).
    • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
      Thank you. Indeed, what I was suggesting, and the reason I posted my comment is to see if others have had similar experiences (which I assume could be true since there is a universality to how our brains respond to stress). While mine were not health-related they (the stressors) were equally as bad and ran on for years; I am naturally an optimistic person and have no addictions, and I live healthily; even so, the only reason I didn't take my life was because my religion expressly forbids it (doomed to Eternity if).
  • esseph 2mo ago
    These are called intrusive thoughts. I have learned about these through a family member with ADHD. With ADHD, you can have the dual problem of both the wandering, intrusive thoughts, with sometimes the lack of impulse control. It can be really dangerous for some. What the poster is talking about is different, something that occurs in a deep depression where your mind is struggling to find a way out of the situation. Sometimes the will gives out completely and you're just a zombie to the world, only slogging forward out of habit and maybe guilt.
    • strken 2mo ago
      I know that the poster is talking about something that occurs in deep depression, but I don't think Edgar Allan Poe was and I don't think TFA was either.
    • sho 2mo ago
      There's another term for the certain-death variety which I prefer - the "call of the void". I think that captures it nicely.
  • vintermann 2mo ago
    Yes, intrusive thoughts are common, and are fairly independent from actual self-destructiveness. You can have intrusive thoughts without being especially self-destructive, and you can be self-destructive without thinking much.
  • disdegeneration 2mo ago
    What if it is one and the same ? The anticipate danger background thread getting a concious foreground role due to the danger/stress beeing "lower" on the attack then the foreground threads relentless predation. What if suicide is a predator scratchpost response?
  • LoganDark 2mo ago
    This is "call of the void". Note that other replies simply call it "intrusive thoughts", but I think that's an overgeneralization, because call of the void is a specific response to keep you wary of hazards, not generic random background noise or self-harmful impulses or anything that "intrusive thoughts" traditionally implies.
  • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
    No, I don't think that's the case. I have ADHD and 'risk-assessment' thoughts which are nothing but impulses, frequently occur in my mind. Such impulses are never about ending your life-- and mostly about 'what happens if I do X or Y' a sort of intense curiosity. The more serious thoughts I mentioned earlier began surfacing after 15 years of extreme loneliness, which considerably weakened my mind, then on top of it, another five years of constant struggle against the most vicious stresses one can imagine (no way out, no matter what, but must find a way out). Towards the end of the fifth year of such chronic stress, these suicidal thoughts began occurring. However, I must also mention that a few years before these thoughts, I also had a serious concussion (unable to walk for months, unable to read, personality change). I'm not sure whether these were due to concussion after-effects but the probability seems low, since there was gap of 3 years between the suicidal thoughts and my concussion.
  • nephihaha 2mo ago
    I'm glad it's not just me. I go to a bar sometimes with a mezzanine and I've often wondered what would happen if someone threw glasses or bottles off that balcony into the bar area below. It would probably end up killing someone. It is not possible to jump over that barrier but easy to throw anything over. I'm glad that (most) people are too civilised to do so.
• cindyllm 2mo ago
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• vintermann 2mo ago
  I also feel like they don't understand what self-destructive impulses are. Forgetting your wallet on your car and driving away? Seriously? I think it's better captured by this line from a Tunng song: When I see land you will conjure up a storm They clearly haven't seen self-sabotage in action if they think forgetting your wallet is it! Think more throwing away a long term relationship whose stability you've longed for all your life, or getting drunk on the day of your bar exam.
  • Fricken 2mo ago
    Her personal example was odd, but there are many other valid examples of destructive impulses cited by her (and Poe) in the essay
  • jjpones 2mo ago
    I think about that article of the travel-blogger who admired Anthony Bourdain and her experience with self-sabotage. Partying out late at night in a sketchy unfamiliar country. Letting herself head home alone at 3 AM with her senses impaired just from a sense of not-caring clearly bordering on severe negligence. I've brushed on some thoughts the same and it's nothing like forgetting my wallet or keys, sometimes you're aware with what you're gambling and just don't really care about the outcome.
  • saltcured 2mo ago
    It stumbled there, but I think the author was just trying to capture the chilling feeling of recognizing something already beyond your control. I also thought it was silly. It would be a bit like talking about Poe and then that time I was a little kid and saw the scoop of ice cream fall off and splat on the ground. Yes, I learned something about entropy. No, I didn't really resonate with the existential horrors of a good Poe story. Now, maybe if I'd been halfway into an absinthe stupor when I dropped the ice cream, I might have been able to close the gap...
• deleted 2mo ago
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• hiddencost 2mo ago
  Psychology is so much more complex and varied in its manifestations and etiologies than you're suggesting here. I'm glad that you found a framework that helped you with your experiences, but it's very important that you understand that many other people had deeply different experiences than you did for very different reasons. Suggesting a single cause of suicidality as due to stress is profoundly irresponsible, and enforcing that framework on other people could quite literally kill them. I agree with you that the author of the article is wildly off base, but so are you. Suggesting she needs to "hit the books" and then describing your personal journey as universal is a particular study in not taking your own advice.
  • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
    "Psychology is so much more complex and varied in its manifestations and etiologies" >> Yes, but there's also a universality to the human experience, isn't it? "enforcing that framework on other people" >> How did I enforce that framework on others? I merely reported my own experiences which were at odd with what the TFA was claiming. That logically means others might have their own experiences (as you also agreed in your comment) that would probably not match the perversity claim by TFA. "describing your personal journey as universal" >> Could you re-read my comment and show everyone here how I claimed my experience was universal?
    • ksaun 2mo ago
      (Not OP, but I also initially interpreted your comment as suggesting a universal truth. I think this sense came from these parts, which read to me as statements of absolute fact (derived, presumably, from the personal experiences you described): > The conditions she describes as 'perversity' is just the heightened response of an over-stressed brain. > The suicidal thoughts... are a first step towards total mental breakdown > I mention all this to help others realize that they need to... solve their stressors (Especially the third one, through the words "realize" and "need.") I believe you that you were not intending to "enforce [your] framework on others"; my intent in posting this comment is to answer your implied question about how one might perceive your comment to be doing so.)
• justsomehnguy 2mo ago
  > then a little voice would tell me You may not answer if you don't want to but from an idle curiosity: do you have an inner monologue in your regular life? > Photos I took for a mugshot in this period show a slight shine in my eyes that I hadn't befor It's always fascinated me how 'the mirror of the soul' not only a very apt metaphor but how we see it even when it's a still shot.
  • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
    Yes, I have ADHD and a near-constant inner monologue is present when I don't occupy my brain with some activity that requires deep involvement (such as mathematics or video games). I also forgot to add the 'shine' has gone away as soon as the severity of my unsolvable problems abated. I knew I looked off, but later reading in literature confirmed my hunch that the eyes reflect inner changes.
• quickthrowman 2mo ago
  I fail to see how the author of this piece is the one who called those things “perversity”, here is a direct quote from the piece that refutes your claim: > he wrote about what he called perverseness: the “unfathomable longing of the soul to vex itself”—the mysterious desire he felt, and believed we all feel, to get in our own way. > Perverseness, Poe thought, was as fundamental a drive as hunger or libido, with its own dedicated region of the brain. When we are perverse, we turn not only against our better judgment but also against what are apparently our desires. “The Imp of the Perverse” begins with an essay defining the concept and giving examples that range from the harmless to the unsettling; Poe classes as perverse both procrastination and the impulse to kill oneself by jumping from a great height. Where does the author define the things that are perverse? All are attributed to Poe.
  • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
    She is using Poe as her mouthpiece, implicitly.
    • quickthrowman 2mo ago
      I understand now, my apologies for the pedantry.
      • jan_m_savage 2mo ago
        No worries, good day to you.