8 ms·

Ask HN: Advice on Migrating from 1Password?

108 points by 0xbadcafebee 1mo ago

I just found out that 1Password is donating $300,000 to a project founded by a very controversial person, and I'm looking to move to a different password manager. Has anyone migrated from 1Password recently to another tool/platform? Have you had a good experience with any tools in particular? Any advice, tips? I'm also interested in the corporate-use context; if I can convince my company to switch to an alternative with business controls, I'll surely try.

rvz 1mo ago
Here is the migration guide for 1Password. [0] The CEO of Stripe also donated $1M to Omarchy. Do we need another migration guide for Stripe since the CEO personally donated to Omarchy and then tell everyone to stop using Stripe and all of their services? [0] https://www.patreon.com/violetblue/posts/how-to-migrate-168468176 https://www.patreon.com/violetblue/posts/how-to-migrate-1684...
- ande-mnoc 1mo ago
  Yes, why not?
  - rvz 1mo ago
    A migration guide for all the services that funded Omarchy would be nice which the alternative must not do business with another service. (E.g, Alternative A to Cloudflare must not use Stripe, or Alternative B to Shopify must not use Cloudflare or Dell) They must be completely independent services that is an alternative to any of the companies that funded Omarchy.
    - ande-mnoc 1mo ago
      Thankfully, second order effect is a spectrum and not a black-and-white thing.
- eddythompson80 1mo ago
  Huh, I guess TIL there is a controversy around Omarchy. I generally dismissed it as a serious distro after 5 second once realized it encourages using the AUR as your default package feed. The AUR is useful, but to me it’s something to be very aware of when you’re installing some software. Encouraging people to install everything through it is a crazy way to configure a distro. I just assumed it’s a distro for a very different target audience so kept my thoughts to myself
  - TonyStr 1mo ago
    It's not really around Omarchy, but around DHH due to his political beliefs. I'm not deep into this, but I think the majority of the controversy stems from this article: https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 That this controversy goes three levels deep (DHH -> Omarchy -> Supporters of Omarchy (1Password)) is kinda funny to me. At what point does it stop?
    - dgellow 1mo ago
      A more recent one is https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a
      - TonyStr 1mo ago
        Wow. I just read this one now, and DHH really makes it hard to defend him. It's definitely possible to make this argument without likening groups of people to wolves and sheep...
        deleted 1mo ago
        [deleted]
      - sensanaty 1mo ago
        Might be cause I'm from the Balkans, but I see nothing extreme here
- dgellow 1mo ago
  Yes
  - rvz 1mo ago
    Maybe you should tell Anthropic to not use Cloudflare or Stripe in their services, since they are in-directly funding Omarchy and move to some alternatives. Given the rapid attention to Omarchy and DHH, its quite an urgent matter...
    - dgellow 1mo ago
      I don’t work for anthropic…
ggm 1mo ago
I migrated from an older 1password to self hosted bitwarden (vaultwarden) using premade configurations which are available for Portman and Docker in the usual places. Mine uses caddy for the Web front, which automates letsencrypt certification. All the client app which talk to bitwarden talk to vaultwarden, but there's no guarantee into the future I guess. I just like self hosted. The export is through CSV in clear. I wish they agreed to use some pkcs defined superencypherment and a json format so you could avoid the pass through plaintext. Do this on a machine you trust, offnet I guess. Bitwarden has corporate options. Password sharing under a reasonable model, group structure.
- bot403 1mo ago
  Just encrypt your CSV after export with the tool of your choice.
- 0xbadcafebee 1mo ago
  Thank you! Good to know self-hosting via web with external clients also works
turtlehwan 1mo ago
Oh, I was only storing and using it in AWS KMS because of the pricing issue, but thanks for the comment. I’ll look into it a bit more.
gspr 1mo ago
Are people in your company moderately technical? If so, I highly recommend https://www.passwordstore.org/ https://www.passwordstore.org/ coupled with a PGP key storage dongle (I personally use NitroKey). Then hosting is just a matter of hosting a minuscule git repo per user. I imagine that a technical company can easily whip up a bespoke simplified interface for its non-technical staff too. I've used it for about a decade at this point, and it's just perfect.
- ngrislain 1mo ago
  I have been using https://www.passwordstore.org/ https://www.passwordstore.org/ for 10 years and am super happy with it. It does not provide all the convenient integrations of 1Password though.
  - tkel 1mo ago
    Checkout gopass for the modern iteration : https://www.gopass.pw/ https://www.gopass.pw/
- 0xbadcafebee 1mo ago
  Unfortunately most of our staff are non-technical, so it might be okay for a backend component, but the frontend users need lots of friendly GUIs, documentation, and integration into other apps (browsers primarily)
vintagedave 1mo ago
There's a bit of a jump here from something appearing good to rapidly becoming very very bad. Here's what I read: > 1Password has pledged $300,000 over three years in support of David Heinemeier Hansson's Linux distribution known as Omarchy, and is now a “distinguished corporate patron” of Omacom. What a nice brand partnership. Supporting a Linux distribution sounds nice; I hadn't heard of that one. But the very next paragraph: > DHH has called for the ethnic cleansing of Europe; he is also an antivaxer, a Covid "truther," a proponent of the "lab leak" conspiracy theory, an 'anti woke' weirdo, and is virulently anti-DEI > In an internal Slack message leaked to press today 1Password’s Roustem Karimov defended DHH as being attacked for his views... Perhaps they could support a different Linux distribution. It's also strongly concerning when someone defends someone with views like that, characterising them as being attacked. In general, toxic, racist, fascist views spread like viruses; when tolerated, through acceptance, they grow. A company needs to root them out. If we trust 1Password with our data, we are trusting a company with those views inside it with our data.
- nubinetwork 1mo ago
  > Perhaps they could support a different Linux distribution. They won't. SV/YC loves the guy, that's the only reason they're donating to Linux/OSS (but really just omarchy).
- petesergeant 1mo ago
  > DHH has called for the ethnic cleansing of Europe; he is also an antivaxer, a Covid "truther," a proponent of the "lab leak" conspiracy theory, an 'anti woke' weirdo, and is virulently anti-DEI Leaving aside all the rest of this, I thought "lab leak" was considered a reasonable hypothesis, although not especially likely, these days, rather than some kind of fringe theory.
  - dgellow 1mo ago
    The lab leak isn’t considered reasonable outside of pundits as far as I’m aware. Unfortunately the pundits are the ones with the microphone
dokyun 1mo ago
piece of paper
- alt227 1mo ago
  Dont know why you are getting downvoted, this is a valid method widely recomended in this day and age. The hacker cant hack your password book locked in your desk drawer!
  - mrweasel 1mo ago
    It's not dumb, it's just a little inconvenient. My passwords are normally 50+ characters and pretty hard to type out, but I could fix that with "Correct Horse Battery Staple" passwords. Travelling is a little worse. I'd need to carry my little pocket book an risk losing it and now I can't lock my accounts, because I don't have the password for them (I could have a backup). You know, I'm kinda talking myself into just doing passwords in a pocket book.
    - chromehearts 1mo ago
      Out of pure interest, why not settle down to idk .. 15-20 characters? Why 50+ char (with what I assume lots of symbols and randomized characters) passwords?
      - mrweasel 1mo ago
        Because I just auto-generate them and 50 is the default in 1Password. I rarely change default in any software I use, partly out of laziness and partly to ensure consistency across devices.
netniuq 1mo ago
I moved to self hosted Vaultwarden (Bitwarden server reimplementation that's client-compatible). You can also directly run Bitwarden, but Vaultwarden is easier to self-host, especially OIDCwarden is nice if SSO is your cup of tea. I don't like Bitwarden's UI as much as 1Password's, but at least it feels faster.
- preya2k 1mo ago
  OIDCwarden still requires two passwords :(
rcarmo 1mo ago
Here you go, I made a quite wide-ranging set of notes here when I switched: https://taoofmac.com/space/apps/1password https://taoofmac.com/space/apps/1password
- 0xbadcafebee 1mo ago
  Thank you!
secwang 1mo ago
unix passstore is perfect
teekert 1mo ago
I really enjoy Proton Pass (but I have a paid subscription so I have passmail aliasses as well). I've been going full passkeys recently, no issues yet. Before this I used Vaultwarden, but I was always a bit afraid of the self-hosting (of something this critical), and I really didn't like how you share credentials in BitWarden (through organizations), Proton Pass is much more intuitive with just straight up sharing of credentials or sharing whole Vaults. You can also share through public 1-time visit, limited time valid-urls. I use that a lot when I set up people's accounts. What I don't like is the tight coupling to Proton's services, Pass should have had it's own credentials. But if you're not a Proton user that doesn't matter (or perhaps it doesn't matter t you in any case.)
- dgellow 1mo ago
  Im a happy Proton customer since a decade for their email and recently file storage service, but I’m concerned about having my passwords and my files and my emails in the same system. It’s risky to have so much in one company, if I lose my proton access for some reasons I’m out of everything
  - teekert 1mo ago
    You can set an extra password for pass but still. I for one also have my 2fa with them... I get the feeling.
    - DavideNL 1mo ago
      What i don't understand is, why Proton Authenticator, which can also sync your 2fa accounts to Proton servers, does not have a separate password (from Proton Pass.) So anyone who gains access to your Proton Pass account credentials, automatically gets access to your synced 2FA codes too And obviously you would want to enable syncing your 2fa accounts, in case your device gets stolen / broken / etc. So the only solution seems to use another 2FA App from another developer. https://proton.me/authenticator https://proton.me/authenticator
- 0xbadcafebee 1mo ago
alt227 1mo ago
IMO choosing products over politics is a pointless game. Use the best tool for the job.
- robin_reala 1mo ago
  Can I assume that you’re not someone affected by DHH’s abhorrent views?
  - john_alan 1mo ago
    > by DHH’s abhorrent views You know that's just your opinion right? Not an objective truth.
    - dgellow 1mo ago
      We are on a forum discussing our opinions on things FFS
  - modo_mario 1mo ago
    Which of his viewpoints is affecting you?
    - robin_reala 1mo ago
      The fomenting of racial hatred a few tens of kilometres from me? I’m lucky to not be targeted by him and his chosen cause, but a lot of my colleagues are right in his firing line.
      - modo_mario 1mo ago
        Where is he fomenting racial hatred? He's opposed to mass migration and as someone who finds the local culture erased in places my family is from and where i've lived i can only say I agree. It was never something the local population was in agreement with anyways. A plainly purposefull democratic deficit and more of a slippery slope than I expected since it gets more and more pushed by the same migrants and rootless cosmopolitans that couldn't handle the cognitive dissonance that they might be an outlier and others might feel more tied to their nation or assimilate. After all it wasn't too long ago that progressives were calling people bigots for saying these migrants would not assimilate like some minor culturally similar migrant flows of the past. Now that script has flipped, done a 180 and they collectively developed rapid Alzheimers? I also remember getting the same insults thrown at me for supporting policy that was impossible and fashistic. yet now we do do things take nationality from naturalised dual nationals who are serious criminals, terrorists and the like and it's supported by the same parties and people that were throwing names and continue to do so. I think much of this is all far too late so why would I give a shit about your desperate attempts to keep social cooling going.
_zoltan_ 1mo ago
1p is the best.
azuanrb 1mo ago
This anti-DHH movement is so weird to me. People seem to read summaries of his views, often based on interpretations that get exaggerated from one article to another until they become something else entirely. At least read the articles yourself, including his other work, so you don’t just cherry-pick the ideas that conform to your existing beliefs. Then form your own opinions.
- dgellow 1mo ago
  Reading the sources makes it way worse…
  - fabioborellini 1mo ago
    Yes, I dismissed the reactions as overreaction and the usual drama, until I read what DHH himself has written this summer. He would no longer fit the European far right comfortably to be honest, his current views align better with the 1930's. And that way SV happily invests tens of millions to your collection of dotfiles.
    - ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
      Can you post the 1930 view link? So far people seem to be posting links to one view that basically any average politically conservative person would hold (limit immigration), although admittedly more flowery prose
      - roryirvine 1mo ago
        You and others have been provided with links to DHH's writing plenty of times when you've asked for evidence in the many threads on this subject that you've participated in over the past few months. If you don't want to give the impression that you're sealioning in an attempt to derail people's conversations, it might be a good idea to first read some of those links before asking for them again.
        1mo ago
fergie 1mo ago
Does DHH actually deserve to be cancelled, or Omarchy "defunded"? I just read the OOTL on Reddit, and I have to say that I am not entirely convinced. https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1oa74wh/im_out_of_the_loop_whats_the_deal_with_dhh/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1oa74wh/im_out_of_th...
- itsn0tm3 1mo ago
  He did post at least two blog posts with very questionable political standpoints, while also not displaying a high level of critical thinking, one could say. Not sure where the point of „should be cancelled“ is reached, but doesn’t paint the best picture of him to say the least. Probably the worst quote: > When wolves get out of control, you shoot them. When gypsies take over public spaces, you deport them. This isn't hard, it isn't cruel. It's the basic logic of self-preservation. [0] The comparison between shooting wolves here seems definitively bad tase and missing nuance. [0] https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a [1] https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
- KingMob 1mo ago
  Not sure what'll convince you then, if DHH's own rant against immigrants and roma doesn't.
  - fmajid 1mo ago
    It's amazing that even after the Holocaust, prejudice against Roma is so prevalent in allegedly polite society.
  - fergie 1mo ago
    I don't know. Something just feels... "off" about it? If you were so inclined you read equivalent stuff in the Telegraph every week, so why go after DHH and his projects so enthusiastically? It just feels like there is something else going on.
dgellow 1mo ago
Oh fuck, 1Password is also part of the DHH crowd?!
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
sakopov 1mo ago
Been using DropBox + Keepass for over a decade now.
- dgellow 1mo ago
  How do you store passkeys?
  - sakopov 1mo ago
    There is a plugin available for that - https://github.com/yusei36/KeePassPasskey https://github.com/yusei36/KeePassPasskey
- TiredOfLife 1mo ago
  Dropbox also invested in Omarchy
lordgrenville 1mo ago
n00b question I guess but what is the value of a standalone password manager? Seems like most browsers and operating systems offer this capability nowadays.
- jen729w 1mo ago
  1Password offers a lot more functionality than, say, Apple Passwords. Apple Passwords will store a user/pass combo for a site. That's it, feature list over. 1Password will let you configure how those things autofill, it provides an `op` CLI that you can use with service account tokens, you can store stuff like photos of your passports and licences, it understands 'Sign in with GitHub', it has per-user access per vault for shared accounts, you can add any number of extra fields to each entry, it integrates directly with Claude, it monitors your passwords against Haveibeenpwned, it'll tell you where you could be using 2FA and aren't … and the list goes on.
- dgellow 1mo ago
  To not be tied to a single machine or OS
- Hamuko 1mo ago
  Google Password Manager, the one built into Chrome, doesn't even do end-to-end encryption by default. You have to go into the settings and opt in to encrypt your password data before it gets sent to Google. And since it's closed source, you also just have to take Google's word for it. You'd be better off using a standalone password manager that is a) secure by default b) auditable.
- 7bit 1mo ago
  Browser password apps are not suited to just store secrets not related to logins. They are personal, meaning no user management or sharing of secrets. They do not sync across devices -- or when they do, with restrictions like same browser/same OS only. They cannot be used for e.g. commit signing or SSH login.
sho 1mo ago
Well, I'm staying exactly where I am. I'll be keeping my company on 1password, and my family too, because I think it's a good product. I don't personally use Omarchy, but I welcome anything that can bring more people to linux on the desktop, so I support that too. I don't agree with everything DHH says, but I absolutely despise online witch hunts so I guess I support him too just on principle. Just felt the need to post that.
KevinMS 1mo ago
Make sure you look closely into politics of anybody connected to the password manager you are switching too, it could be even worse!
- Hamuko 1mo ago
  If you switch to a free one, at least you can be sure that your money isn't being funnelled to people who you fundamentally disagree with, even if the creators have shitty beliefs.
  - KevinMS 1mo ago
    "funnelled to people" is a weird way to describe funding a free open source project.
    - drcongo 1mo ago
      No it isn't.
- KetoManx64 1mo ago
  [flagged]
hs86 1mo ago
Passkeys, SSH keys, Fastmail's masked email integration. Did I get myself into vendor lock-in, or are these items covered by those password manager exports?
fmajid 1mo ago
KeePassXC or Bruce Schneier's Password Safe. The nice things about Keepass* is that the format is an open standard with multiple implementations and if any one turns out to be a problem, you can switch easily.
- roryirvine 1mo ago
  Yeah, KeePassXC is pretty basic but is trustworthy and it works. The KeePassXC-Browser extension for Firefox and Chromium-based browsers is useful too: https://github.com/keepassxreboot/keepassxc-browser https://github.com/keepassxreboot/keepassxc-browser
- preya2k 1mo ago
  Whenever I see KeePass mentioned as an alternative I think we should add this disclaimer: KeePass does not offer sync and conflict resolution. This must be handled by your filesystem/OS/other tools. While this is typically not a problem for single users or very small groups, this can be catastrophic in company/group settings. So please think hard about whether you want sync/conflict resolution (server/client based solutions like Bitwarden/Vaultwarden) to be part of your Password manager – or not.
  - mbirth 1mo ago
    KeePassXC has a merge feature for this scenario. Apps like Strongbox (macOS/iOS) merge automatically while saving. And I believe there are more apps doing this.
croon 1mo ago
I've been using Bitwarden for close to a decade now, and it still works, but given silent documentation changes and increasingly opaque communication following the CEO change, I started considering self-hosting. While vaultwarden exists, and would be the obvious choice, I started shopping around as well. So hijacking the thread to ask if anyone has used Aliasvault [0] (no affiliation)? [0] https://github.com/aliasvault/aliasvault https://github.com/aliasvault/aliasvault
mplanchard 1mo ago
Apart from everything about DHH, I personally feel like the choice to invest so much money in Omarchy, of all things, shows a lack of good technical sense from the folks at 1pw. If you’re doing charitable giving, why not give to an established product that will be around in 10 years time, or one that provides core technology the other linux distros depend on? I don’t want the money I spend on 1pw going to some poorly chosen bet on a vibecoded distro, just because it’s in the SV hype limelight at the moment.
- ChiperSoft 1mo ago
  Exactly, Omarchy is little more than a wrapper around Arch, why not just donate to Arch directly? The entire thing has a smell to it, like theres some weird tax avoidance happening or something.
  - ocodo 1mo ago
    Not even a technically well executed wrapper around Arch. Just a guy's meh level config. I feel like releasing a distro based around Niri and calling it Omarcomin
    - KetoManx64 1mo ago
      [flagged]
  - KetoManx64 1mo ago
    Because Arch itself is run by a cesspool of leftist idealogs that will ban anyone that disagree with them politically. - They banned the XLibre project from the Arch wiki and repos - They rejected DHH's offer to work together to improve the Arch AUR and to work on aarch64 support for mainline.
svt1234 1mo ago
I set up a Passbolt server. Took less than an hour to set up and then migrate all my passwords from 1Password. Free since it is open source.
- phireal 1mo ago
  Yeah, I've been pretty impressed with Passbolt in testing. Currently running Vaultwarden but quite tempted by Passbolt.
QuiEgo 1mo ago
Apple’s built in passwords app. It’s basic, but it’s fine. I trust Apple’s security team way more than I trust pretty much any other company on this. I thought about self-hosting Bitwarden, but I honestly don’t trust myself to maintain something security-critical (stay on top of patches and also be aware of supply chain attacks to revert patches and all that fun).
- paulyy_y 1mo ago
  How about when you're not on an Apple product?
  - QuiEgo 1mo ago
    The only non-Apple systems I’m on are headless Linux boxes authenticated with SSH key pairs, which I usually only use through zsh. They have a way to use from Windows, have never tried it: https://support.apple.com/guide/icloud-windows/set-up-icloud-passwords-icw2babf5e03/icloud https://support.apple.com/guide/icloud-windows/set-up-icloud...
baroninthetrees 1mo ago
I wouldn't think this is too difficult. Care to just make your own? I'll give it a go too.
0xbadcafebee 1mo ago
[flagged]
cloudfudge 1mo ago
Deterministic password generator is the only way to go for me. I have my own that takes the site name, username, and a version number and SHA256 hashes it all with a passphrase, and runs the resulting bytes through a simple transformation that produces a strong password with a good character set. Optionally allows me to specify constraints on the password (e.g. which special chars, limited length) for sites with idiotic password rules. If you want to change a password, you incremement the version number. The whole thing is a simple command line dingus that barfs the password out to the clipboard and a note (including the username reminder) out to stdout. I even had claude port it to ios for me. I've been using this technique for literally all my passwords for about 7 years now and it works great. The only downside is it doesn't help me in situations where I want to either share a password or receive a shared password from someone else. The really beautiful thing is that you can reconstruct your important passwords completely from memory even after losing your whole config. This saved me recently when my laptop died. git clone / vim a config / remember your passphrase / done
- benhurmarcel 1mo ago
  But you still need to store the login and version number for each domain in a database. And provide the secret key. At this point you might as well store the encrypted password along with the rest.
  - cloudfudge 1mo ago
    Login and secret key are from memory (especially login for important accounts). Version number is typically pretty small and thus guessable. Like I said, it worked perfectly for critical stuff when my laptop died recently. There is no database. I used the important accounts from memory to bootstrap my way into github where the full config is saved.
pfych 1mo ago
I migrated to self hosted bitwarden (vaultwarden) on my Nix VPS. Using the CXP integration in the iOS 1Password/Bitwarden apps made bringing over my OTP codes, Passkeys and passwords super easy. It didn't bring over my attached files though, but easy enough to manually do that. Was able to get it setup, migrated and 1Pass sub cancelled in less than an hour. FYI, I was briefly having issues with the iOS and Desktop bitwarden apps but it was due to my vaultwarden version being a little behind! Making sure I was running latest with a nix flake update fixed any issues :)
dhafin 1mo ago
What are the main things you're trying to preserve from 1Password in the move? I'm particularly curious whether you're looking for another cloud-based manager, or whether keeping the vault under your own control is part of the reason you're considering a switch.

someguydave 1mo ago

Why is this extreme?

AlecSchueler 1mo ago
> Cue the gypsies in Copenhagen, and their increasingly brazen behavior, after the city legalized overnight sleeping in parks and other green areas last year. Because "it shouldn't be illegal to be homeless" ... > This has predictably led to these foreign vagrants setting up camp ... > Copenhagen is the Danish capital. It's repeatedly been named the safest city in the world in recent years. Partly because it didn't tolerate vagrants ... It would be easier to ask how this is a normal way of speaking? Gypsies is already a derogatory word, vagrant implies something criminal rather than cultural about their behaviours, and he's making an issue of them not being local vagrants (what?). The decisions he's incredulous about came about democratically and the debates involved were carried out by public representatives and are publicly actually. The incredulity is just rhetoric and the implication that they're dangerous because they're foreign or live transiently surely has no place in a modern society. > When wolves get out of control, you shoot them. How is this in any way a non-extreme metaphor to use?
- someguydave 1mo ago
  Vagrancy is a crime in many places. Vagrants and transients are often dangerous and mentally ill. It is reasonable to use state violence to suppress crimes. Using a metaphor about the control of dangerous animals being similar to the control of dangerous people is not extreme.
  - AlecSchueler 1mo ago
    > Vagrancy is a crime in many places. It is. The Romani aren't vagrants and they're doing nothing illegal. Calling them vagrants is charged and misleading. > Vagrants and transients are often dangerous and mentally ill. That can be true. Again the Romani aren't vagrants and using the word to describe then implies a level of danger and/or mental health issues that isn't evidenced. > It is reasonable to use state violence to suppress crimes. No-one has asserted otherwise. > the control of dangerous animals being similar to the control of dangerous people is not extreme. It's generally accepted the dehumanising a people or culture is extreme, I'm not sure how you can argue otherwise. There are any number of alternative metaphors that could have been used (not to mention that the argument could have been built on its own weight) that wouldn't have involved comparing an entire people to a pest that needs to be controlled with lethal force.

ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago

It's a result of political division in US. If you are on the left then you have to see lab leak as a racist rightie conspiracy theory or you will have issues fitting in. Also lab leak is rejected as a side effect from being confused with intentional leak/bioweapon theory, which is entirely radioactive. Political right is the other way around. It is not conclusively proven one way or the other, but most people just made their conclusion: left that it's the market, right that it's the lab (or bioweapon for especially out there).

carrychains 1mo ago
It is both a racist rightie conspiracy theory and a plausible possibility worthy of serious consideration. Any reasonable person needs to recognize it as both simultaneously and will have no trouble fitting in among anyone outside the fringe at either end of the political spectrum.
- ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
  It can't be two mutually exclusive things simultaneously. I don't think it's just the fringes, at least it wasn't the case in 2022, now it's just not something many people talk about anymore
  - ball_of_lint 1mo ago
    What is mutually exclusive about those two things?
    - ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
      "conspiracy theory" specifically means choosing the crazy explanation while more reasonable explanations exist. If you say the explanation is NOT crazy because it deserves investigation then it's automatically not a conspiracy theory.
      - ball_of_lint 1mo ago
        "choosing" is the keyword here. You have to reason probabilistically. There was a point at which lot of people would have put 100% or 99% confidence that covid came from a lab leak. That's the conspiracy theory side. A lot of more reasonable people would have put 1% or 5% confidence on covid coming from a lab leak, saying roughly "It's unlikely, but hard to rule out because China isn't being transparent". And then ask for more investigation, which is exactly what happened. So at no point was it rationally worth a 99% probability estimate, but it was worth investigation.
        ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
        What validity do you put on earth being flat? So that's the validity some people put on covid lab leak theory. You may be surprised. Calling something a conspiracy theory means rejecting its validity for investigation out of hand. Maybe you don't use it like that but that's how most people apparently use it. > There was a point at which lot of people would have put 100% or 99% confidence that covid came from a lab leak Why was? Now it is a point at which a lot of people put 100% confidence that covid came from a lab leak. And a lot of other people put 100% confidence that it was Wuhan market bat. And that's the problem I tried to express.

modo_mario 1mo ago

It's mostly extreme hyperbole and twisting of his views if anything. One of his criticisms was the virulent attacks on anyone that questioned policy during covid. He for example prefered the Danish approach and they still ended up doing better than the UK or US. I also can't help but see the folks clamoring for mass migration for the past 2 decades in europe against popular will as anything other than blind oikophobes. If you'd look at my capital and other places you'd question who is actually calling for ethnic cleansing.

vintagedave 1mo ago
I think caution re cultural integration, vs talking about shooting wolves and calling for deportations using a word regarded as a slur, are two different things. (Both these are within the same paragraph, adjacent sentences.) It does not read as twisting of his views: he has it right in writing on his blog. https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a Remember one of the tactics is to sound reasonable, while stretching what is acceptable speech. This lets those who approach with bad faith defend the statements while approving of what they imply or lead to.
- modo_mario 1mo ago
  >I think caution re cultural integration.... are two different things. I was called similar for much milder views and past caution. I stood by in discussion further in the past when people got attacked in that way lest id be perceived badly and out of line with my ohter progressive views. No caution was had. Now it's too late. You can't reasonably wish to undo most of it. (Denaturalising people who are abusing or comiting crime is not that) I honestly see my culture as a dead one down the line. All so we could supress wages and pretend to hold up a pyramid scheme whilst doing some social signaling. That doesn't mean i should forget, forgive myself and others and go along. I've developed a strong dislike for the social cooling that got us there in conflict with the opinions of the majority of the public. I no longer want to be overly nuanced and I am more than able to remember and throw back every past claim and defense regarding all this i read countless times a decade or 2 ago. > vs talking about shooting wolves and calling for deportations using a word regarded as a slur It's a stupid analogy. That said deportations within the law of foreign nationals that have no permission to be there is a historic normality the world over. The slur i can see tho i also don't give it much weight because I think it's one squarely on the euphemism threadmil. I used to argue your very point roughly a decade ago alongside an american against a polish friend who was very much opposed to them. Putting his grandma in the hospital over a bike, killing a mates dog along the whole cultural chasm with forced marriages and attitudes towards education and authority really didn't sit well which i could see. But i thought words have power and will worsen the situation and generalisation. But in the end the word gypsies will be forced out of the vocab, zigeuner/cigany will go as well and then roma will be used with those conotations all whilst useful change is sidestepped. I think Slavoj Žižek had a good bit on this. >Remember one of the tactics is to sound reasonable, while stretching what is acceptable speech. This lets those who approach with bad faith defend the statements while approving of what they imply or lead to. And the opposite has happened as well and has had far far more impact. Curtailing what is acceptable speech to defend in bad faith and hide what it's all leading to.

drcongo 1mo ago
Nobody is asking you to give a shit, yet somehow you managed to post a 225 word 5 paragraph screed on something you don't give a shit about. Why should we give a shit about your ramblings?
- modo_mario 1mo ago
  Nowhere did I write I don't give a shit about this. I said I don't give a shit about attempts to force social cooling anymore. Your reading comprehension is lacking.
  - drcongo 1mo ago
    Nobody is attempting to force social cooling. How is any of this being forced upon you?
    - modo_mario 1mo ago
      If you have a set of opinions and people who vehemently oppose them start pushing a bandwagon where they twist your words to make them sound more extreme and typify them with the worst descriptors they can think of (nazi, antivaxer, etc) , spread all this around and then call for boycots of you and anyone that associates with you what would you call that? I disagree with some of his views but can see it across the board. One doesn't have to agree with him or others to take note and this doesn't affect only some well known rich people. It's far more pervasive and from my perspective it is pushing self-censorship and conformity under a pervasive reputation economy. That is social cooling and it's often done purposefully. Once one of your oppinions sticks out and bumps into this wall it becomes very easy to see how often it actually applies. How falling too much out of line on one front creates all kinds of connected assumptions about anything else you might say. From there it is easily visible how it pushes a lot of people to political fringes (helped by the social media bubbles) and has other consequences.
      - croon 1mo ago
        > If you have a set of opinions and people who vehemently oppose them start pushing a bandwagon where they twist your words to make them sound more extreme and typify them with the worst descriptors they can think of (nazi, antivaxer, etc) , spread all this around and then call for boycots of you and anyone that associates with you what would you call that? I can't argue on specifics because you only mention a "set of opinions", but have you entertained the idea that some opinions held by someone who doesn't necessarily identify as bigoted/hateful/illwilling can still be weaponized as such? How do you view the electorate of 1930s Germany? Personally I think very few of them were racists or fascists, but yet their votes were what led to "Nazi Germany". I believe you when you say you're unfairly labeled, and I also believe many more are. I however simultaneously believe that good people fall in with propaganda by piecemeal, that lead to much worse, and that "woke" people are rightfully upset by this.
        modo_mario 1mo ago
        >I can't argue on specifics because you only mention a "set of opinions", I kept it broad since it applies broadly. Region specific separatism and struggles for self determination, migration, covid response, etc I have piles of experiences so think this discussion is better had with some wide framing which is hard to do candidly over text without writing a book (and putting out too much personal info for more eyes) but I'd love to hop on a call some time if you'd like. I find that it also makes people more receptive to eachothers points and ideas if they see/hear a living breathing human with often similar fundamentals. > but have you entertained the idea that some opinions held by someone who doesn't necessarily identify as bigoted/hateful/illwilling can still be weaponized as such? I agree but i don't consider this a onesided thing. In fact it becomes very evident when essentially the same positions are firmly branded left wing or right wing depending on the country and context. >Personally I think very few of them were racists or fascists, but yet their votes were what led to "Nazi Germany". I agree and not only were they as human as you and me and shaped and misled by their circumstances I think this kind of stuff applies much more broadly than this popular extreme pivotal point around which a lot of western viewpoints revolve. From a consequentialist perspective it's remarkably common to see people actively pushing towards outcomes they don't want or towards extremes they don't quite support trough nothing but innapropriate tying togheter of ideas or the power of words. > that "woke" people are rightfully upset by this. On some fronts they are. On others I've found that people weren't exactly pulled towards their respective (extreme) political bubble. They were shoved towards it by people who consider themselves very righteous and on occasion would "prefer a pagan to a heretic" or by reality not bending towards pure expectations and kneejerk reactions when faced with that.
        croon 1mo ago
        Just wanted to say I appreciate your response being both nuanced, clear and with no attempts at misrepresenting any of my points. It's rarer than it should be.

ejohansson 1mo ago
>"less immigrants please" By God, is that how you read it? The comparison to animals, that he could not live with people of different ethnicity? And by "ethnicity", this literally means "non-white" people, as he, as a Danish person, wanted to move to London and complains that there are too many foreigners. This is the AfD-level right-wing, not your casual conservative. Regardless, it's pretty expected that people would not want to support someone who writes this awful kind of similes.
- ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
  The comparison to animals cuts both ways, right? He's comparing locals to sheep > And by "ethnicity", this literally means "non-white" people I read the links before I posted. I remember reading "non-Danes" and talking about Brits and non Brits. to me being a British person is about culture not skin color. If he is judging people by skin color then I'll disagree with him on that.
  - ejohansson 1mo ago
    I'm honestly not entirely sure what you're doing. >He's comparing locals to sheep Yes, you're right! Romani people to wolves. And locals as sheep. And we should put down the wolves. >I read the links before I posted. One link specifically says "non-Danes" the other one is talking about Brits and non Brits. Yes, you're right! Brits and non-brits. Let's scour: >That was then. Now, I wouldn't dream of it. London is no longer the city I was infatuated with in the late '90s and early 2000s. Chiefly because it's no longer full of native Brits. There's a hint of what's going on here. Danish person wants to move to London. Gets to London. "gee, I could never migrate here, there are way too few native Brits". It's almost like he considers himself "a native Brit". Buddy just doesn't like colored people.
    - ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
      > Romani people to wolves. And locals as sheep The comment I responded to had an issue with him comparing Roma people to animals. I just said he compared local people to animals too. Now if you move goalposts and say comparing to wolves is worse than comparing to sheep, we can argue about that but it's a different argument. > Yes, you're right! Brits and non-brits Exactly. But the comment I responded to claimed he hated people based on skin color. Brits can be black, you know? Some of my favorite brits are black or asian. Other articles provided by a sibling comment show he believes people cannot integrate based on the country of their parents' origin, which is a wrong view in my opinion, but that quoted part you're replying about isn't about that.
      - ejohansson 1mo ago
        [dead]
    - olalonde 1mo ago
      1) The article is not even about Romani people, it's about vagrants. 2) He seems to be ok with some level of immigration: "Copenhagen, by comparison, was about eighty-five percent native Danes in 2000, and is still three-quarters today. Enough of a foreign presence to feel cosmopolitan, but still distinctly Danish in all of its ways. [...] So I get the frustration that many Brits have with the way mass immigration has changed the culture and makeup of not just London, but their whole country." Nothing extreme about this. I have British friends of Indian descent who have expressed similar sentiments to me. Do you boycott Japanese and Chinese companies as well? Because I guarantee their views on immigration are far more extreme. China, for all practical purposes, has essentially no immigration. And finally, none of this has anything remotely to do with his operating system.
  - Hikikomori 1mo ago
    This is exactly what you'd find in der sturmer in the 30's, Nazis regularly used predator/prey analogies when describing jews as invading their country.
    - ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
      OK. I thought they compared them to parasites... Kind of the opposite of predator. incompatible metaphors if you ask me, but I guess population didn't care.
      - croon 1mo ago
        Feature #8 in Umberto Eco's essay Ur-Fascism: > The followers must feel humiliated by the ostentatious wealth and force of their enemies. When I was a boy I was taught to think of Englishmen as the five-meal people. They ate more frequently than the poor but sober Italians. Jews are rich and help each other through a secret web of mutual assistance. However, the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak. Fascist governments are condemned to lose wars because they are constitutionally incapable of objectively evaluating the force of the enemy. The incompatibility is a feature of the propaganda.
        ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
        This sounds similar to Russian or PRC propaganda about West and Western propaganda about PRC.
      - Hikikomori 1mo ago
        They did both actually. Could call it broad spectrum rhetoric, as some rhetoric works on some people and not others, and people riled up on emotions don't stop and consider if they're being internally consistent in their rhetoric. Even popular today in right winger rhetoric about globalism or the deep state. They're both controlling and running the world but are also completely incompetent and inept at stopping their "enemies" from gaining power.

Sammi 1mo ago

The list gets worse and worse as you go... he starts out with the usual right wing demagogue opinions and then just gets more and more explicitly racist as he goes. In the end talking about shooting wolves as an analogy for deporting gypsies... ??? I can't hand wave this stuff away. 1. https://world.hey.com/dhh/failed-integration-and-the-fall-of-multiculturalism-77296314 https://world.hey.com/dhh/failed-integration-and-the-fall-of... (Jan 2025) Argues that people from certain cultures can never integrate into European societies no matter what anyone does, which amounts to saying that where you come from permanently determines whether you can belong. 2. https://world.hey.com/dhh/closing-the-borders-alone-won-t-fix-the-problems-aca49088 https://world.hey.com/dhh/closing-the-borders-alone-won-t-fi... (Mar 2025) Calls Danish-born children and grandchildren of Middle Eastern, North African, Pakistani and Turkish immigrants "culturally-incompatible" and blames them for school violence and women feeling unsafe. These are Danish citizens being written off because of their ancestry. 3. https://world.hey.com/dhh/gender-and-sexuality-alliances-in-primary-school-at-cis-97f66c06 https://world.hey.com/dhh/gender-and-sexuality-alliances-in-... (Jun 2025) Describes a trans-inclusion week at his kids' school as indoctrination and talks about trans identity spreading among children like a contagion. This is the post people point to for transphobia. 4. https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 (Sep 2025) The post that started the backlash. Says London is no longer full of "native Brits," but the numbers he uses are census figures for white British people, so non-white Londoners born in the UK don't count as British by his definition. Calls this a nightmare and a "demographic replacement," which is Great Replacement conspiracy language, and describes a Tommy Robinson march as heartwarming. 5. https://world.hey.com/dhh/we-ve-all-had-enough-of-this-nonsense-8545dd26 https://world.hey.com/dhh/we-ve-all-had-enough-of-this-nonse... (Sep 2025) His response to being called racist: the critics are woke loonies, and calling someone a Nazi is really a signal that violence against him has been authorized. Doesn't engage with what he actually wrote. 6. https://world.hey.com/dhh/the-rape-of-britain-610412f8 https://world.hey.com/dhh/the-rape-of-britain-610412f8 (Jun 2026) Presents the grooming-gang scandal as Pakistani Muslims raping White British girls, based on a report published by Rupert Lowe's Restore Britain party rather than any official inquiry. The scandal is real; the ethnic-versus-ethnic framing and the partisan source are the problem. 7. https://world.hey.com/dhh/three-sacred-cows-that-must-die-so-europe-can-live-1afb203d https://world.hey.com/dhh/three-sacred-cows-that-must-die-so... (Jul 2026) Says stopping immigration isn't enough and that "millions who are already in Europe must go." He calls this remigration, a mass-deportation idea that came out of the European far right as the solution to the Great Replacement. 8. https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a https://world.hey.com/dhh/wolves-sheep-and-gypsies-ba44af6a (Jul 2026) Compares Roma migrants in Copenhagen, whom he calls gypsies, to wolves killing sheep, and ends with: you shoot the wolves, you deport the gypsies. An ethnic group likened to predators, using a word many Roma consider a slur. 9. https://world.hey.com/dhh/i-m-sorry-dave-380ec27d https://world.hey.com/dhh/i-m-sorry-dave-380ec27d (Jul 2026) Defends the wolves post as banal mainstream opinion and approvingly cites The Camp of the Saints, a novel that white nationalists treat as a foundational text. Doubling down rather than walking anything back.

ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
You edited your comment substantially. About the two links you originally posted: I read them just before commenting here. It's a common (especially recently) view about immigrants in many countries. In Europe and USA it's a common politically conservative view, in PRC, Korea, Japan, Russia it's more mainstream. Not something I fully support. I disagree about disliking let alone deporting immigrants just because they're different or because of the skin color. However, I can see an issue when immigration significantly worsens tragedy of the commons. My view as I mentioned in some other thread before is that it's not unreasonable to expect an immigrant to culturally integrate (note that this doesn't mean abandoning religion or traditions) and speak local language. I guess DHH may be more conservative than me, but comparing it to German Nazi seems a stretch. Also, nearly half of Europeans I come across in my experience have similar views. I'll read the other links in a bit, thanks!
- Sammi 1mo ago
  Yeah I found more stuff when I searched farther.
  - ShinyLeftPad 1mo ago
    Based on your summaries, I stand by my opinion. The average conservative European is against trans weeks (no opinion), may agree that some cultures can never integrate (I disagree), may claim that some people are culturally incompatible because their parents are from some countries (this may be the worst, and I disagree), may claim that London is no longer full of Brits (contrary to your summary of it census puts a number on Brits of any skin color-59%-but I disagree that it is in itself an issue), would classify the grooming gang scandal as a Muslim-related issue (no opinion, as far as I recall Mohammed's recorded sayings discount harm to non-believers but no idea if that played any significant role), dislikes gypsies' effect on public places (I heard similar stuff from other Europeans, personally I don't have anything against gypsies and disagree with stressing ethnicity, but haven't lived where their presence is noticeable and IMO it's not unreasonable to expect integration from immigrants), etc. These don't seem like extreme views even if I don't support them. It's clear I don't agree with him but if there was a smoking gun that made his opinions too extreme considering mainstream I'm sure they would surface in your summaries. Not sure it's 1930 German Nazi level bad, though him being a bit famous makes it worse. I can see why some people may feel like they want to switch providers. luckily I don't use 1password. Thanks!