3 ms·

Firefox's AI Switch Is Off. Telemetry Isn't

42 points by speckx 1mo ago

surcap526 1mo ago
[dead]
jasonvorhe 1mo ago
> To be clear, I know that the AI kill switch does not claim to disable telemetry or advertising. Well, at least it's not the closing sentence.
- Farmadupe 1mo ago
  Thankyou! that title was painful, I spent 20 seconds term rewriting it in my head.. * Firefox's AI Switch Is Off. Telemetry Isn't * Firefox's AI Switch Is Off. Telemetry Isn't off [complete second clause] * Firefox's Telemetry Isn't Off [remove negative clause] * Firefox's Telemetry Is On [remove double negative] ---- Admittedly I didn't read past the first two paragraphs, but I assume it is a several hundred word repetition of its tautologous title.
- mossTechnician 1mo ago
  The troubling part in the post is that telemetry (about AI features) begins before the user can rush to disable either of them. It's a response to the Mozilla CEO saying[0] "Trust is earned. Consent is asked. AI skipped both," which promised to ameliorate this issue, and apparently did not. [0]: https://aed.me/articles/turn-it-off/ https://aed.me/articles/turn-it-off/
  - userbinator 1mo ago
    before the user can rush to disable either of them You download, disconnect from the network, and then edit the settings file before even starting the app for the first time.
    - Walf 1mo ago
      That's not ever how it should be done, and the average person certainly won't work around that. However, I'm fine with telling Mozilla once per install that I'm not interested in using the generative AI, or summaries, etc. On-device translation is quite useful.
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
  - jasonvorhe 1mo ago
    If the CEO of the company behind my browser of choice gave me an AI slopped response after criticism of integrating AI into the browser I'd never touch that product again unless he got fired.
jqpabc123 1mo ago
Just follow the money.
drnick1 1mo ago
There shouldn't be any telemetry in free software, end of. There are other ways to estimate the number of active users, e.g. through downloads and browser fingerprints. Mozilla does not need more money than it already has. Ladybird has shown that you don't need a huge team to build a browser from scratch, so clearly Mozilla isn't spending all the money it gets from Google for development.
- sourthyme 1mo ago
  Does Firefox sell this data? That would be bad and should be able to turn off. But there's other uses for telemetry that can help free software.
  - JohnFen 1mo ago
    Like with any software, you can't ever really be sure if they share this data with other entities. That's part of why I don't let software phone home, FOSS or not.
  - throwa356262 1mo ago
    Why gather this much data if you are not monetizeing it? It has a cost and can also become a liability. You don't do it just for fun.
    - coldfloor 1mo ago
      Because it's useful in aiding in development. "Telemetry" is not "spying" or "collecting personal information" or whatever else uninformed people like this blog author try to dramatize it as. Telemetry is anonymous crash reports, how many users are using vertical vs horizontal tabs, how many people engaged the AI killswitch, etc. If it's NOT anonymized/bucketized usage date, then it's NOT telemetry. People need to stop conflating the two. Ironically, it's the people who disable all telemetry out of ignorance and paranoia that end up crying every time a developer deprecates their favorite feature or they have an issue with a new release. If you don't vote you don't get to complain. Mozilla's PM's in particular have repeatedly published and cited telemetry data in their decision making, and have referenced crash reports in proactively filed bugs.
userbinator 1mo ago
It's somewhat cathartic to go through the settings and JS parts, using the source as a guide, and rip out/disable all the spyware, which you can do even without having to build the whole thing from source. Since I do my content filtering at the proxy level, all I want is just a browser .
- anonymous344 1mo ago
  how? i used pihole, but it slows down everything
  - nubinetwork 1mo ago
    Pihole is DNS, if it's making you slow, you've got other problems... the DNS server on your home router probably has about the same performance.
  - userbinator 1mo ago
    MITM proxy. As a bonus, things which aren't configured to explicitly trust its certificate will naturally fail to phone home.
jamesjhare 1mo ago
water is wet the sky is blue
deleted 1mo ago
[deleted]
overflowy 1mo ago
I love Firefox but I don't understand why anybody would use it without a custom config like BetterFox[1]. [1] https://github.com/yokoffing/Betterfox https://github.com/yokoffing/Betterfox
- bsian 1mo ago
  Because my browser is an extremely sensitive piece of software and I don’t trust just anybody to provide it for me.
  - overflowy 1mo ago
    That's literally just a configuration file. You can adapt it to your needs and create something even more tailored than the browser's default version.
  - kbelder 1mo ago
    Least of all, a browser publisher.
metalman 1mo ago
I cant stand firefox for browsing, and now rarely access the web through a lap/desk top and just usb transfer files I create onto my phone, from where they get sent via whatever service is required. The web is dead anyway, so any random browser is good enough,as the whole fucking thing is a giant scam me baby honey pot if anything and one of these days a bunch of mega scraper operations are going to get stuck to each other and litteraly catch on fire, which would be interesting, remember that?, interesting things, ha!, now the reaction is to look over your shoulder to see if anyone noticed you bieng had.
VCFundedGenYer 1mo ago
Vanilla Firefox is a swamp of user-hostile defaults, telemetry, useless AI features, and forced addons that try to upsell you. The most sensible way to get around this is to use LibreWolf or Waterfox. They aggressively rip all of this out.
- Walf 1mo ago
  I'm always baffled by vitriol like this. The alternatives you mention wouldn't even exist without Firefox, and what bloody swamp? What forced extensions? I just started a two fresh profiles to test your claim (one in Firefox, one in Dev Edition), the opt-out for telemetry is present in the very first dialogue box and costs 2 clicks. There's a daily usage ping that's still on, and I'm happy to keep it on, because I believe that usage stat is valuable. It's easily disabled. There are zero extensions by default, and one video decoding plugin. There is a skippable 'recommended add-ons' step on first run, so skip it if you want, easy. The AI controls are all set to Available but none are automatically used, one must intentionally do so, at which point one is reminded these can be entirely disabled. Even opening the AI chat sidebar doesn't actually connect to a bot, it offers a list of bots, beneath which is a Close button, though that's not the only way to close it. If you prefer Waterfox, great, you're not the primary target demographic for Firefox, but you can still use it without all the pain you complain of.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 1mo ago
    > I just started a two fresh profiles to test your claim (one in Firefox, one in Dev Edition), the opt-out for telemetry is present in the very first dialogue box and costs 2 clicks. And now I'm confused. Firefox 153 on Linux, new profile. First screen: > You’re in safe paws > We protect your data and block companies from spying on your clicks — automatically. > Set Firefox as default browser > Import from previous browser Second screen: > Give your browsing a boost > Extensions are tiny apps that let you customize Firefox. They can power up your privacy, enhance productivity, change the way Firefox looks, and so much more. > Explore staff recommended extensions Third screen: > Go anywhere. Sync everything. > Grab bookmarks, passwords, and more everywhere you’re signed in to Firefox. Plus, your data is encrypted so only you can see it. > Sign up or sign in And that's it; after that it dumps out to the page of ads that is the new tab screen. If I click to Settings > Permissions and data > Firefox data collection and use, it appears that everything is default enabled except automatically sending crash reports.

42 points by speckx 1mo ago

[dead]

> To be clear, I know that the AI kill switch does not claim to disable telemetry or advertising. Well, at least it's not the closing sentence.

Farmadupe 1mo ago
Thankyou! that title was painful, I spent 20 seconds term rewriting it in my head.. * Firefox's AI Switch Is Off. Telemetry Isn't * Firefox's AI Switch Is Off. Telemetry Isn't off [complete second clause] * Firefox's Telemetry Isn't Off [remove negative clause] * Firefox's Telemetry Is On [remove double negative] ---- Admittedly I didn't read past the first two paragraphs, but I assume it is a several hundred word repetition of its tautologous title.
mossTechnician 1mo ago
The troubling part in the post is that telemetry (about AI features) begins before the user can rush to disable either of them. It's a response to the Mozilla CEO saying[0] "Trust is earned. Consent is asked. AI skipped both," which promised to ameliorate this issue, and apparently did not. [0]: https://aed.me/articles/turn-it-off/ https://aed.me/articles/turn-it-off/
- userbinator 1mo ago
  before the user can rush to disable either of them You download, disconnect from the network, and then edit the settings file before even starting the app for the first time.
  - Walf 1mo ago
    That's not ever how it should be done, and the average person certainly won't work around that. However, I'm fine with telling Mozilla once per install that I'm not interested in using the generative AI, or summaries, etc. On-device translation is quite useful.
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
- jasonvorhe 1mo ago
  If the CEO of the company behind my browser of choice gave me an AI slopped response after criticism of integrating AI into the browser I'd never touch that product again unless he got fired.

jqpabc123 1mo ago

Just follow the money.

drnick1 1mo ago

There shouldn't be any telemetry in free software, end of. There are other ways to estimate the number of active users, e.g. through downloads and browser fingerprints. Mozilla does not need more money than it already has. Ladybird has shown that you don't need a huge team to build a browser from scratch, so clearly Mozilla isn't spending all the money it gets from Google for development.

sourthyme 1mo ago
Does Firefox sell this data? That would be bad and should be able to turn off. But there's other uses for telemetry that can help free software.
- JohnFen 1mo ago
  Like with any software, you can't ever really be sure if they share this data with other entities. That's part of why I don't let software phone home, FOSS or not.
- throwa356262 1mo ago
  Why gather this much data if you are not monetizeing it? It has a cost and can also become a liability. You don't do it just for fun.
  - coldfloor 1mo ago
    Because it's useful in aiding in development. "Telemetry" is not "spying" or "collecting personal information" or whatever else uninformed people like this blog author try to dramatize it as. Telemetry is anonymous crash reports, how many users are using vertical vs horizontal tabs, how many people engaged the AI killswitch, etc. If it's NOT anonymized/bucketized usage date, then it's NOT telemetry. People need to stop conflating the two. Ironically, it's the people who disable all telemetry out of ignorance and paranoia that end up crying every time a developer deprecates their favorite feature or they have an issue with a new release. If you don't vote you don't get to complain. Mozilla's PM's in particular have repeatedly published and cited telemetry data in their decision making, and have referenced crash reports in proactively filed bugs.

userbinator 1mo ago

It's somewhat cathartic to go through the settings and JS parts, using the source as a guide, and rip out/disable all the spyware, which you can do even without having to build the whole thing from source. Since I do my content filtering at the proxy level, all I want is just a browser .

anonymous344 1mo ago
how? i used pihole, but it slows down everything
- nubinetwork 1mo ago
  Pihole is DNS, if it's making you slow, you've got other problems... the DNS server on your home router probably has about the same performance.
- userbinator 1mo ago
  MITM proxy. As a bonus, things which aren't configured to explicitly trust its certificate will naturally fail to phone home.

jamesjhare 1mo ago

water is wet the sky is blue

deleted 1mo ago

[deleted]

overflowy 1mo ago

I love Firefox but I don't understand why anybody would use it without a custom config like BetterFox[1]. [1] https://github.com/yokoffing/Betterfox https://github.com/yokoffing/Betterfox

bsian 1mo ago
Because my browser is an extremely sensitive piece of software and I don’t trust just anybody to provide it for me.
- overflowy 1mo ago
  That's literally just a configuration file. You can adapt it to your needs and create something even more tailored than the browser's default version.
- kbelder 1mo ago
  Least of all, a browser publisher.

metalman 1mo ago

I cant stand firefox for browsing, and now rarely access the web through a lap/desk top and just usb transfer files I create onto my phone, from where they get sent via whatever service is required. The web is dead anyway, so any random browser is good enough,as the whole fucking thing is a giant scam me baby honey pot if anything and one of these days a bunch of mega scraper operations are going to get stuck to each other and litteraly catch on fire, which would be interesting, remember that?, interesting things, ha!, now the reaction is to look over your shoulder to see if anyone noticed you bieng had.

VCFundedGenYer 1mo ago

Vanilla Firefox is a swamp of user-hostile defaults, telemetry, useless AI features, and forced addons that try to upsell you. The most sensible way to get around this is to use LibreWolf or Waterfox. They aggressively rip all of this out.

Walf 1mo ago
I'm always baffled by vitriol like this. The alternatives you mention wouldn't even exist without Firefox, and what bloody swamp? What forced extensions? I just started a two fresh profiles to test your claim (one in Firefox, one in Dev Edition), the opt-out for telemetry is present in the very first dialogue box and costs 2 clicks. There's a daily usage ping that's still on, and I'm happy to keep it on, because I believe that usage stat is valuable. It's easily disabled. There are zero extensions by default, and one video decoding plugin. There is a skippable 'recommended add-ons' step on first run, so skip it if you want, easy. The AI controls are all set to Available but none are automatically used, one must intentionally do so, at which point one is reminded these can be entirely disabled. Even opening the AI chat sidebar doesn't actually connect to a bot, it offers a list of bots, beneath which is a Close button, though that's not the only way to close it. If you prefer Waterfox, great, you're not the primary target demographic for Firefox, but you can still use it without all the pain you complain of.
- yjftsjthsd-h 1mo ago
  > I just started a two fresh profiles to test your claim (one in Firefox, one in Dev Edition), the opt-out for telemetry is present in the very first dialogue box and costs 2 clicks. And now I'm confused. Firefox 153 on Linux, new profile. First screen: > You’re in safe paws > We protect your data and block companies from spying on your clicks — automatically. > Set Firefox as default browser > Import from previous browser Second screen: > Give your browsing a boost > Extensions are tiny apps that let you customize Firefox. They can power up your privacy, enhance productivity, change the way Firefox looks, and so much more. > Explore staff recommended extensions Third screen: > Go anywhere. Sync everything. > Grab bookmarks, passwords, and more everywhere you’re signed in to Firefox. Plus, your data is encrypted so only you can see it. > Sign up or sign in And that's it; after that it dumps out to the page of ads that is the new tab screen. If I click to Settings > Permissions and data > Firefox data collection and use, it appears that everything is default enabled except automatically sending crash reports.