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I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). Sorry, I have always thought that "opting in" is, "opting for the presented option" an

by teekert 1mo ago

I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). Sorry, I have always thought that "opting in" is, "opting for the presented option" and opting out is "opting out of it", so opting out [of sharing prompts for training] is choosing to not share, but apparently I was wrong my whole life. I'm not a native speaker, and I think most people here (in my country) would interpret this the way I do? Weird but TIL.

tedggh 1mo ago
You said it correctly, there’s no confusion.
- tedggh 1mo ago
  Downvoted for knowing how to read
Miraltar 1mo ago
If you opt in it means that by default you're not in and you chose that option. So if you're now included in training by default, then it's an opt-out feature as in you can opt out of it.
- teekert 1mo ago
  Idk, feels like my brain does not have the model for this, this does not exist in my language afaik haha.
  - bluefirebrand 1mo ago
    Opt-in = "we assume you are out unless you tell us you want to be in" Opt-out = "we assume you are in unless you tell us you want to be out"
  - blub 1mo ago
    Replace opt with its equivalent “choose” and it becomes choose-(tobe-)in and choose-(tobe-)out.
  - sn0n 1mo ago
    Just remember, good company’s leave them off by default. Bad companies will turn them on for you.
bee_rider 1mo ago
FWIW I don’t find what you wrote confusing, but I do think it is following a sort of… bad convention that some companies have been pushing. Opt-in and opt-out describe the nature of the choice that you make. “Opt” means to choose (apparently it is a French word we stole). Opt-in means you have to proactively choose to be in. Opt-out means you have to proactively choose to be out. “Opt-in by default” is an overly verbose way of saying “opt-out.” In either case it describes the choice that you need to proactively make to override the default behavior. Edit: I should also say that it is a “known point of contention” where pro-privacy people have been pushing back on this phrasing. So, you have probably accidentally stumbled into an ongoing discussion, which is why some of the comments might be unexpectedly prickly.
- rcxdude 1mo ago
  >Edit: I should also say that it is a “known point of contention” where pro-privacy people have been pushing back on this phrasing. So, you have probably accidentally stumbled into an ongoing discussion, which is why some of the comments might be unexpectedly prickly. Yes, because people will say that something should be opt-in, meaning off by default, and then someone makes it on by default and says 'oh, it's opt-in, you're just opted in by default!'
  - bee_rider 1mo ago
    I 100% agree that “opt-in by default” is bad and that “opted” in that sense is a bullshit incoherent phrase. Unfortunately this “opting as a thing that happens to you instead of a choice” idea has evidently been promoted well, so we have to expect that people will unknowingly use it.
    - mahirsaid 1mo ago
      And suddenly we have laws directing AI companies to report bad behavior or potential rival candidates.
      - half_fish 1mo ago
throwaway89201 1mo ago
> I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). You don't see "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral’s AI models" at https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy ? And "Allow the use of your API calls to train Mistral’s AI models" at https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy ?
- teekert 1mo ago
  The toggles I see at https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy: Allow public sharing of chats content Allow user feedback on model responses Chat Retention Policy At https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy I see Allow the use of your API calls to train Mistral’s AI models. Enable Labs models So indeed, no "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral’s AI models". I only see that setting here: https://chat.mistral.ai/chat?profile_dialog=privacy https://chat.mistral.ai/chat?profile_dialog=privacy And I have to ask every user in my org to go and turn it off.
- teekert 1mo ago
  Mistral support just confirmed that the org-wide toggle was removed from the Team plan earlier this year and made exclusive to the enterprise tier. I bet that if you signed up earlier, they didn't remove it from your account, but it's not there for new customers. Which explains some of the confusion here. Also explains that the community support in Discord insisted that the toggle should be there, moreover they told me the individual toggles on the user's pages wouldn't do anything because it defaulted to "off" for any organization, as per their docs until 2 days ago. But that changed.
- teekert 1mo ago
  Ok it (org wide toggle) just (24h after posting this) returned and the docs were changed again! They now include the text: "Vibe (Teams): Administrators can disable data training usage for the entire organization." That’s nice! Except that it was on for my entire org so I’ll be checking if they didn’t store anything first thing tomorrow. I wonder what changed their minds.
quadrifoliate 1mo ago
I think there is a simple, unambiguous way to describe this, which is to use the passive voice or an explicit subject with the past tense to clarify that you didn't do the opting in. Saying "we were disappointed to be opted in to training by default" clarifies the point you're trying to make, which is that the toggle (whatever it may be called) was set to training by someone else, not you. Actually in your case you'd say "...after being disappointed that the Pro tier opted us in to training on prompts by default", which gives an explicit subject ("the [Mistral] Pro tier"). No one will confuse that with the opposite "the Pro tier opted us out of training on prompts by default".
- frereubu 1mo ago
  I think the trouble with "opted in to training by default" is that there was no "opting", i.e. no choosing. I can't come up with a better suggestion off the top of my head though!
duskdozer 1mo ago
No you're not wrong, but while I can't speak for this specific instance, in many other cases, this language is intentionally confusing in order to dark-pattern users into agreeing to the thing they don't want to. Similar is using ambiguous language next to a switch/checkbox that makes it difficult to tell exactly what each state means.
abhayaya 1mo ago
Imho, legally, one should always be 'opted out' of 'forced mingling of your ideas' without deliberately opting in. Same as for advertising, click-through tracking, and sociopsycho/marketing metrics. Like the old firewall rule (easier to handle opt-in/out that way than firewalls; like, how many people can run a firewall that way now?). Users should have it right in front of their face when they install something or register, too, not hidden among options. It might take the user five or ten more minutes to get to use the app but worth it.

by teekert 1mo ago

tedggh 1mo ago

You said it correctly, there’s no confusion.

tedggh 1mo ago
Downvoted for knowing how to read

Miraltar 1mo ago

If you opt in it means that by default you're not in and you chose that option. So if you're now included in training by default, then it's an opt-out feature as in you can opt out of it.

teekert 1mo ago
Idk, feels like my brain does not have the model for this, this does not exist in my language afaik haha.
- bluefirebrand 1mo ago
  Opt-in = "we assume you are out unless you tell us you want to be in" Opt-out = "we assume you are in unless you tell us you want to be out"
- blub 1mo ago
  Replace opt with its equivalent “choose” and it becomes choose-(tobe-)in and choose-(tobe-)out.
- sn0n 1mo ago
  Just remember, good company’s leave them off by default. Bad companies will turn them on for you.

bee_rider 1mo ago

FWIW I don’t find what you wrote confusing, but I do think it is following a sort of… bad convention that some companies have been pushing. Opt-in and opt-out describe the nature of the choice that you make. “Opt” means to choose (apparently it is a French word we stole). Opt-in means you have to proactively choose to be in. Opt-out means you have to proactively choose to be out. “Opt-in by default” is an overly verbose way of saying “opt-out.” In either case it describes the choice that you need to proactively make to override the default behavior. Edit: I should also say that it is a “known point of contention” where pro-privacy people have been pushing back on this phrasing. So, you have probably accidentally stumbled into an ongoing discussion, which is why some of the comments might be unexpectedly prickly.

rcxdude 1mo ago
>Edit: I should also say that it is a “known point of contention” where pro-privacy people have been pushing back on this phrasing. So, you have probably accidentally stumbled into an ongoing discussion, which is why some of the comments might be unexpectedly prickly. Yes, because people will say that something should be opt-in, meaning off by default, and then someone makes it on by default and says 'oh, it's opt-in, you're just opted in by default!'
- bee_rider 1mo ago
  I 100% agree that “opt-in by default” is bad and that “opted” in that sense is a bullshit incoherent phrase. Unfortunately this “opting as a thing that happens to you instead of a choice” idea has evidently been promoted well, so we have to expect that people will unknowingly use it.
  - mahirsaid 1mo ago
    And suddenly we have laws directing AI companies to report bad behavior or potential rival candidates.
    - half_fish 1mo ago

throwaway89201 1mo ago

> I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). You don't see "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral’s AI models" at https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy ? And "Allow the use of your API calls to train Mistral’s AI models" at https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy ?

teekert 1mo ago
The toggles I see at https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/vibe/privacy: Allow public sharing of chats content Allow user feedback on model responses Chat Retention Policy At https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy https://admin.mistral.ai/plateforme/privacy I see Allow the use of your API calls to train Mistral’s AI models. Enable Labs models So indeed, no "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral’s AI models". I only see that setting here: https://chat.mistral.ai/chat?profile_dialog=privacy https://chat.mistral.ai/chat?profile_dialog=privacy And I have to ask every user in my org to go and turn it off.
teekert 1mo ago
Mistral support just confirmed that the org-wide toggle was removed from the Team plan earlier this year and made exclusive to the enterprise tier. I bet that if you signed up earlier, they didn't remove it from your account, but it's not there for new customers. Which explains some of the confusion here. Also explains that the community support in Discord insisted that the toggle should be there, moreover they told me the individual toggles on the user's pages wouldn't do anything because it defaulted to "off" for any organization, as per their docs until 2 days ago. But that changed.
teekert 1mo ago
Ok it (org wide toggle) just (24h after posting this) returned and the docs were changed again! They now include the text: "Vibe (Teams): Administrators can disable data training usage for the entire organization." That’s nice! Except that it was on for my entire org so I’ll be checking if they didn’t store anything first thing tomorrow. I wonder what changed their minds.

quadrifoliate 1mo ago

I think there is a simple, unambiguous way to describe this, which is to use the passive voice or an explicit subject with the past tense to clarify that you didn't do the opting in. Saying "we were disappointed to be opted in to training by default" clarifies the point you're trying to make, which is that the toggle (whatever it may be called) was set to training by someone else, not you. Actually in your case you'd say "...after being disappointed that the Pro tier opted us in to training on prompts by default", which gives an explicit subject ("the [Mistral] Pro tier"). No one will confuse that with the opposite "the Pro tier opted us out of training on prompts by default".

frereubu 1mo ago
I think the trouble with "opted in to training by default" is that there was no "opting", i.e. no choosing. I can't come up with a better suggestion off the top of my head though!

duskdozer 1mo ago

No you're not wrong, but while I can't speak for this specific instance, in many other cases, this language is intentionally confusing in order to dark-pattern users into agreeing to the thing they don't want to. Similar is using ambiguous language next to a switch/checkbox that makes it difficult to tell exactly what each state means.

abhayaya 1mo ago

Imho, legally, one should always be 'opted out' of 'forced mingling of your ideas' without deliberately opting in. Same as for advertising, click-through tracking, and sociopsycho/marketing metrics. Like the old firewall rule (easier to handle opt-in/out that way than firewalls; like, how many people can run a firewall that way now?). Users should have it right in front of their face when they install something or register, too, not hidden among options. It might take the user five or ten more minutes to get to use the app but worth it.