4 ms·

Context: After careful research our organization preferred a European partner with good central privacy controls. We landed on Mistral, after being disappointed

by teekert 1mo ago

Context: After careful research our organization preferred a European partner with good central privacy controls. We landed on Mistral, after being disappointed that the Pro tier was opt-in to training on prompts by default we switched up to the Team tier which provides an organization dashboard with some relevant settings. As we did that Mistral changed these options and the Team tier was now also opt-in by default and at the same time seemed to have lost the ability to centrally disable training on prompts for your entire organization. This even caused some of our (testing) prompts to be used for training (which Mistral removed after we expressed our disappointment). For some time these pages conflicted with what our users reported (they said that in contrast to what I stated to our management they found they were opted into training on prompts by default as per their own privacy page). Mistral just now corrected their docs. I'm not sure how long the conflicting situation has lasted, but at least for several days. For contrast: Claude disables training on prompts for organizations starting from the 18 euro tier [0]. As a European I'm disappointed. [0] https://claude.com/pricing#team-&-enterprise https://claude.com/pricing#team-&-enterprise

summarity 1mo ago
“Opt in by default” would mean that it is not enabled by default. Do you mean opt out?
- teekert 1mo ago
  You are "opting in to sharing your prompts for training", by default in this case. My slider says: "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral's AI models.", it is on by default for everyone on the Team plan, the admin can't centrally turn it off anymore, and any user can toggle it when they want to. This all changed last week. I know I'm naive but I expect that when I pay, this stuff is simply off, so I was already surprised by the Pro plan. But I did look out for it there, because Anthropic made this switch some time ago.
  - KPGv2 1mo ago
    > You are "opting in to sharing your prompts for training", by default in this case. The English term for that is "opt out" not "opt in." To opt is to choose. If something is on by default, you have not opted in. You were forced in, and turning it off means you must opt out. (I.e., choose to be out.) normally I wouldn't care about a mistake like this, except that opt in/out are very important concepts in software development and hacker culture. And it reversed the meaning of the original comment in a highly confusing, relevant way.
    - jrave 1mo ago
      as another non-native speaker, i think that while the person you're answering to didn't use the default way of expressing this in the english-speaking world, i did understand what they meant, i think they do know what opting means and i think the reasoning is this: when they say data collection is "opt in" by default they mean that by choosing to use a product, you are opting into your data being collected (at the same time). on the other hand, native speakers saying something is "opt out" describes the options or toggles one has available in the default case - when something is toggled "true", you (only) have the choice to toggle it of. so english speakers talk about the controls one has to CHANGE the status quo.
      - kzrdude 1mo ago
        As another non-native speaker, I misunderstood what the person meant.
    - brendoelfrendo 1mo ago
      They said "opt in to training on prompts by default," which is coherent English and perfectly fine. The phrases "opt in" and "opt out" will always be contextual based on what is being opted, so it really falls to the reader to pay attention to that context. Please don't give English language advice as though you are an authority; there is not a rule of the English language that would make their usage unacceptable.
      - 1mo ago
- kevincox 1mo ago
  Yes, I found this comment very hard to understand until I realised they were talking about it being opt-out with no setting to change it. (At first I thought it was opt-in by default, and the "by default" implies that there is a setting to change the opt-in/opt-out setting)
lukan 1mo ago
"For contrast: Claude disables training on prompts for organizations starting from the 18 euro tier " In theory also for individuals? At least I have that toggle to deactivate that. But how would I ever know if they actually respect that?
- kccqzy 1mo ago
  If you don’t trust the company to keep their promise, don’t use their products.
  - RussianCow 1mo ago
    I don't trust any company with their word on anything. Luckily, privacy policies are legally binding.
    - nullsanity 1mo ago
      Why does that matter? Legally binding just means "slightly more expensive when we get caught"
    - tjwebbnorfolk 1mo ago
      > Luckily, privacy policies are legally binding. Laws are violated all the time. The graveyard is full of people who had the right-of-way at a crosswalk ...
    - lostlogin 1mo ago
      > Luckily, privacy policies are legally binding. Companies violate them all the time and massive leaks happen a lot. The punishments are trivial.
      - rkangel 1mo ago
        GPDR fines in the EU are NOT trivial.
    - DarmokTanagra 1mo ago
throwaway89201 1mo ago
> and at the same time seemed to have lost the ability to centrally disable training on prompts for your entire organization There is a toggle on https://admin.mistral.ai https://admin.mistral.ai that allows you to disable training for both Vibe and Console/API for your entire organisation. And I'm not on the enterprise plan. I've disabled training the first time I created an account, and it has remained that way. You story is also very confusing due to the wording around "opt-in by default" and "disappointed [about] opt-in to training" (most people would be disappointed about an opt-out) and probably conveys the wrong message to most people.
- surcap526 1mo ago
  [dead]
- teekert 1mo ago
  I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). Sorry, I have always thought that "opting in" is, "opting for the presented option" and opting out is "opting out of it", so opting out [of sharing prompts for training] is choosing to not share, but apparently I was wrong my whole life. I'm not a native speaker, and I think most people here (in my country) would interpret this the way I do? Weird but TIL.
  - tedggh 1mo ago
    You said it correctly, there’s no confusion.
    - tedggh 1mo ago
      Downvoted for knowing how to read
  - Miraltar 1mo ago
    If you opt in it means that by default you're not in and you chose that option. So if you're now included in training by default, then it's an opt-out feature as in you can opt out of it.
Exoristos 1mo ago
> opt-in by default That's called opt-out.
- globular-toast 1mo ago
  Yeah, it was confusing to read the parent before I realised they got the terms the wrong way around. To those wondering, "opt" means to choose. "Opt in by default" makes no sense because you didn't choose; this is just "in by default". If they give you an option then it's called opt out. Opt in would be "out by default" with the option to go in.
Aldipower 1mo ago
Today I registered a free account with Grok, because I simply was curious. Man, training is "off" by default even with the free tier. I was positively surprised. As a European I'm disappointed too.
- _puk 1mo ago
  Lol, I'm fully expecting in 6 months time: "A bug in our portal had the setting for training inverted. This means that when you expected us not to be training on your data, we actually were. We know this adversely impacts the trust our users invested in us, so as of today we are crediting all affected accounts with $200 to use on our latest models".
  - Aldipower 1mo ago
    One can expect a lot what happens in 6 months. Maybe the earth will turn clockwise then! Think about it. :-D
    - artwr 1mo ago
      Lol. I would have thought it depended more on your relative position to the equator than on the season.
  - leonidasrup 1mo ago
    Until the risk of large financial penalties or long jail times is high enough, the CEOs of there companies operate using the "It's Better to Ask for Forgiveness Than Permission" model.
- blazarquasar 1mo ago
  Grok has possibly the worst ToS of any of the AI providers. They are probably different in the EU, but: > In choosing to submit, create, generate, record, post, or display Inputs on or through the Service, you grant an irrevocable, perpetual, transferable, sublicensable, royalty-free, and worldwide right to SpaceXAI to use, copy, store, modify, process, adapt, transmit, distribute, reproduce, publish, upload, download, display in public forums, list information regarding, make derivative works of, and distribute such Content, including anything referenced therein, in any and all media or distribution methods now known or later developed, for any purpose, and to aggregate your User Content and derivative works thereof for any purpose, including but not limited to: (i) maintain and provide the Service; (ii) improve our products and the Service and for our other business purposes, such as data analysis, customer and market research, developing new products or features, or identifying or displaying usage or User Content trends; and (iii) perform such other actions to enforce these Terms, comply with our Privacy Policy, comply with applicable law or governmental, court, and law enforcement requests or requirements or keep our Service safe. > To the extent the User Content includes a person’s image, likeness, voice, or other similar attributes, you grant SpaceXAI the same rights to use those attributes as part of the User Content as described above. You represent and warrant that you have obtained all rights, licenses, notices, permissions, and consents necessary for SpaceXAI to use that User Content. https://x.ai/legal/terms-of-service https://x.ai/legal/terms-of-service
kragen 1mo ago
> being disappointed that the Pro tier was opt-in to training on prompts by default "Opt-in" means that the default is non-participation, for example, not training on your prompts. Is it possible that you intended to say "opt-out", which means that the default is participation? That's what the context seems to suggest. See, for example, https://termly.io/resources/articles/opt-in-vs-opt-out/ https://termly.io/resources/articles/opt-in-vs-opt-out/: > Data privacy laws like the GDPR and CCPA give individuals the right to opt in or out of different data processing activities. > · Opt in consent means the user takes an action to show they agree to something, > · Opt out consent is when they take an action to say no. Or https://bigid.com/blog/opt-in-vs-opt-out-consent/ https://bigid.com/blog/opt-in-vs-opt-out-consent/: > • Opt-in consent requires users to actively agree before data collection or processing. > • Opt-out consent allows data collection by default unless the user declines. This is an important distinction, because confusing the two (as you seem to be doing) can lead you both into unethical fraud and legal liability.
surcap526 1mo ago
[dead]
semiquaver 1mo ago
> opt-in by default Sorry to nitpick but the scheme you’re referring to is called “opt-out.”
jacquesm 1mo ago
I don't trust any of these companies with my data, and I assume that whatever data they've got is going to be used, one way or another, no matter what they tell you. It would be nice if you could stick a sentinel in your data that if it ever shows up in the models you know they've broken the rules for sure.
- bluefirebrand 1mo ago
  Yeah. Unfortunately they know you can't catch them on this so they feel absolutely free to do whatever they please If such a data sentinel did exist then we might see them change their behavior
rezonant 1mo ago
Buried by the distraction of the semantics of "opt in" vs "opt out", the more interesting conflict isn't addressed in the sibling threads. > and at the same time seemed to have lost the ability to centrally disable training on prompts for your entire organization vs > Vibe (Teams): Administrators can disable data training usage for the entire organization. Is the document out of date? Or did Mistral reinstate this ability after the fact? What's the story here? Others seem to be stating they have and have had the ability to opt out of training centrally for a long time. EDIT: Oh, it is addressed just a bit hard to find with all the opt in/out explanations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49549102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49549102
- teekert 1mo ago
  You are right! They must have just now switched this back, I also have the toggle now! It was turned on sadly but it’s something.
teekert 1mo ago
Just now the sentence: “Vibe (Teams): Administrators can disable data training usage for the entire organization.” Was added to tfa. And I now see an org wide toggle where there was none before! Sadly it was on so I hope no users submitted stuff in the mean time, but it’s something!

by teekert 1mo ago

summarity 1mo ago

“Opt in by default” would mean that it is not enabled by default. Do you mean opt out?

teekert 1mo ago
You are "opting in to sharing your prompts for training", by default in this case. My slider says: "Allow the use of your interactions with Vibe to train Mistral's AI models.", it is on by default for everyone on the Team plan, the admin can't centrally turn it off anymore, and any user can toggle it when they want to. This all changed last week. I know I'm naive but I expect that when I pay, this stuff is simply off, so I was already surprised by the Pro plan. But I did look out for it there, because Anthropic made this switch some time ago.
- KPGv2 1mo ago
  > You are "opting in to sharing your prompts for training", by default in this case. The English term for that is "opt out" not "opt in." To opt is to choose. If something is on by default, you have not opted in. You were forced in, and turning it off means you must opt out. (I.e., choose to be out.) normally I wouldn't care about a mistake like this, except that opt in/out are very important concepts in software development and hacker culture. And it reversed the meaning of the original comment in a highly confusing, relevant way.
  - jrave 1mo ago
    as another non-native speaker, i think that while the person you're answering to didn't use the default way of expressing this in the english-speaking world, i did understand what they meant, i think they do know what opting means and i think the reasoning is this: when they say data collection is "opt in" by default they mean that by choosing to use a product, you are opting into your data being collected (at the same time). on the other hand, native speakers saying something is "opt out" describes the options or toggles one has available in the default case - when something is toggled "true", you (only) have the choice to toggle it of. so english speakers talk about the controls one has to CHANGE the status quo.
    - kzrdude 1mo ago
      As another non-native speaker, I misunderstood what the person meant.
  - brendoelfrendo 1mo ago
    They said "opt in to training on prompts by default," which is coherent English and perfectly fine. The phrases "opt in" and "opt out" will always be contextual based on what is being opted, so it really falls to the reader to pay attention to that context. Please don't give English language advice as though you are an authority; there is not a rule of the English language that would make their usage unacceptable.
    - 1mo ago
kevincox 1mo ago
Yes, I found this comment very hard to understand until I realised they were talking about it being opt-out with no setting to change it. (At first I thought it was opt-in by default, and the "by default" implies that there is a setting to change the opt-in/opt-out setting)

lukan 1mo ago

"For contrast: Claude disables training on prompts for organizations starting from the 18 euro tier " In theory also for individuals? At least I have that toggle to deactivate that. But how would I ever know if they actually respect that?

kccqzy 1mo ago
If you don’t trust the company to keep their promise, don’t use their products.
- RussianCow 1mo ago
  I don't trust any company with their word on anything. Luckily, privacy policies are legally binding.
  - nullsanity 1mo ago
    Why does that matter? Legally binding just means "slightly more expensive when we get caught"
  - tjwebbnorfolk 1mo ago
    > Luckily, privacy policies are legally binding. Laws are violated all the time. The graveyard is full of people who had the right-of-way at a crosswalk ...
  - lostlogin 1mo ago
    > Luckily, privacy policies are legally binding. Companies violate them all the time and massive leaks happen a lot. The punishments are trivial.
    - rkangel 1mo ago
      GPDR fines in the EU are NOT trivial.
  - DarmokTanagra 1mo ago

throwaway89201 1mo ago

> and at the same time seemed to have lost the ability to centrally disable training on prompts for your entire organization There is a toggle on https://admin.mistral.ai https://admin.mistral.ai that allows you to disable training for both Vibe and Console/API for your entire organisation. And I'm not on the enterprise plan. I've disabled training the first time I created an account, and it has remained that way. You story is also very confusing due to the wording around "opt-in by default" and "disappointed [about] opt-in to training" (most people would be disappointed about an opt-out) and probably conveys the wrong message to most people.

surcap526 1mo ago
[dead]
teekert 1mo ago
I don't have that toggle (but could indeed have sworn I saw it earlier). Sorry, I have always thought that "opting in" is, "opting for the presented option" and opting out is "opting out of it", so opting out [of sharing prompts for training] is choosing to not share, but apparently I was wrong my whole life. I'm not a native speaker, and I think most people here (in my country) would interpret this the way I do? Weird but TIL.
- tedggh 1mo ago
  You said it correctly, there’s no confusion.
  - tedggh 1mo ago
    Downvoted for knowing how to read
- Miraltar 1mo ago
  If you opt in it means that by default you're not in and you chose that option. So if you're now included in training by default, then it's an opt-out feature as in you can opt out of it.

Exoristos 1mo ago

> opt-in by default That's called opt-out.

globular-toast 1mo ago
Yeah, it was confusing to read the parent before I realised they got the terms the wrong way around. To those wondering, "opt" means to choose. "Opt in by default" makes no sense because you didn't choose; this is just "in by default". If they give you an option then it's called opt out. Opt in would be "out by default" with the option to go in.

Aldipower 1mo ago

Today I registered a free account with Grok, because I simply was curious. Man, training is "off" by default even with the free tier. I was positively surprised. As a European I'm disappointed too.

_puk 1mo ago
Lol, I'm fully expecting in 6 months time: "A bug in our portal had the setting for training inverted. This means that when you expected us not to be training on your data, we actually were. We know this adversely impacts the trust our users invested in us, so as of today we are crediting all affected accounts with $200 to use on our latest models".
- Aldipower 1mo ago
  One can expect a lot what happens in 6 months. Maybe the earth will turn clockwise then! Think about it. :-D
  - artwr 1mo ago
    Lol. I would have thought it depended more on your relative position to the equator than on the season.
- leonidasrup 1mo ago
  Until the risk of large financial penalties or long jail times is high enough, the CEOs of there companies operate using the "It's Better to Ask for Forgiveness Than Permission" model.
blazarquasar 1mo ago
Grok has possibly the worst ToS of any of the AI providers. They are probably different in the EU, but: > In choosing to submit, create, generate, record, post, or display Inputs on or through the Service, you grant an irrevocable, perpetual, transferable, sublicensable, royalty-free, and worldwide right to SpaceXAI to use, copy, store, modify, process, adapt, transmit, distribute, reproduce, publish, upload, download, display in public forums, list information regarding, make derivative works of, and distribute such Content, including anything referenced therein, in any and all media or distribution methods now known or later developed, for any purpose, and to aggregate your User Content and derivative works thereof for any purpose, including but not limited to: (i) maintain and provide the Service; (ii) improve our products and the Service and for our other business purposes, such as data analysis, customer and market research, developing new products or features, or identifying or displaying usage or User Content trends; and (iii) perform such other actions to enforce these Terms, comply with our Privacy Policy, comply with applicable law or governmental, court, and law enforcement requests or requirements or keep our Service safe. > To the extent the User Content includes a person’s image, likeness, voice, or other similar attributes, you grant SpaceXAI the same rights to use those attributes as part of the User Content as described above. You represent and warrant that you have obtained all rights, licenses, notices, permissions, and consents necessary for SpaceXAI to use that User Content. https://x.ai/legal/terms-of-service https://x.ai/legal/terms-of-service

kragen 1mo ago

> being disappointed that the Pro tier was opt-in to training on prompts by default "Opt-in" means that the default is non-participation, for example, not training on your prompts. Is it possible that you intended to say "opt-out", which means that the default is participation? That's what the context seems to suggest. See, for example, https://termly.io/resources/articles/opt-in-vs-opt-out/ https://termly.io/resources/articles/opt-in-vs-opt-out/: > Data privacy laws like the GDPR and CCPA give individuals the right to opt in or out of different data processing activities. > · Opt in consent means the user takes an action to show they agree to something, > · Opt out consent is when they take an action to say no. Or https://bigid.com/blog/opt-in-vs-opt-out-consent/ https://bigid.com/blog/opt-in-vs-opt-out-consent/: > • Opt-in consent requires users to actively agree before data collection or processing. > • Opt-out consent allows data collection by default unless the user declines. This is an important distinction, because confusing the two (as you seem to be doing) can lead you both into unethical fraud and legal liability.

surcap526 1mo ago

[dead]

semiquaver 1mo ago

> opt-in by default Sorry to nitpick but the scheme you’re referring to is called “opt-out.”

jacquesm 1mo ago

I don't trust any of these companies with my data, and I assume that whatever data they've got is going to be used, one way or another, no matter what they tell you. It would be nice if you could stick a sentinel in your data that if it ever shows up in the models you know they've broken the rules for sure.

bluefirebrand 1mo ago
Yeah. Unfortunately they know you can't catch them on this so they feel absolutely free to do whatever they please If such a data sentinel did exist then we might see them change their behavior

rezonant 1mo ago

Buried by the distraction of the semantics of "opt in" vs "opt out", the more interesting conflict isn't addressed in the sibling threads. > and at the same time seemed to have lost the ability to centrally disable training on prompts for your entire organization vs > Vibe (Teams): Administrators can disable data training usage for the entire organization. Is the document out of date? Or did Mistral reinstate this ability after the fact? What's the story here? Others seem to be stating they have and have had the ability to opt out of training centrally for a long time. EDIT: Oh, it is addressed just a bit hard to find with all the opt in/out explanations: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49549102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49549102

teekert 1mo ago
You are right! They must have just now switched this back, I also have the toggle now! It was turned on sadly but it’s something.

teekert 1mo ago

Just now the sentence: “Vibe (Teams): Administrators can disable data training usage for the entire organization.” Was added to tfa. And I now see an org wide toggle where there was none before! Sadly it was on so I hope no users submitted stuff in the mean time, but it’s something!