5 ms·

I've been wanting to play back the writing of an essay for years. Since Etherpad saves every keystroke, I convinced the founders to add a way to play them back

by pg 18y ago

I've been wanting to play back the writing of an essay for years. Since Etherpad saves every keystroke, I convinced the founders to add a way to play them back. "Startups in 13 Sentences" was the first essay I wrote on Etherpad. Now I'm going to write all of them on it. Playback is just one little feature of Etherpad, but think of the implications of this alone. Among other things it will make cheating impossible in classes where students write papers, because now you can finally "show your work" in writing the way you do in math.

ttol 18y ago
That feature is neat and gives insight into the way people write. Would be just as interesting to see a playback of versioned source code files in SVN / CVS..
- pg 18y ago
  You can do that in Etherpad now. It grew out of a code editor the Appjets wrote for their own use.
- jyothi 18y ago
  That would be an amazing training tool. I have learnt the most by observing great engineers code, than reading tons of material. It just strikes at you the way they fork functions, how they name variables, logic, the way they would cut out/undo unnecessary statements and combine them to optimize code. It just reflects the way good programmers think when they code.
ponchopepe 18y ago
> think of the implications of this alone There are already non-webapp mouselog/keylog and replay applications. And besides, think of the implications of letting students be on the internet while they are writing essays.
- alecst 18y ago
  Can you provide links to some of these? I'd prefer a non-webapp version, since I have an intermittent internet connection.
  - gleb 18y ago
    /usr/bin/script script -t 2> script.demo.time script.demo xemacs -nw # M-x tetris # ; play tetris now # C-x C-c ; exit emacs exit # watch tetris being played: scriptreplay script.demo.time script.demo script can create a "screencast" of any terminal session. This works pretty well, but probably is not the right solution for the education market pg is talking about :-)
- pg 18y ago
  It's different when it's built into a generic, web-based editor. Imagine the difference between a) telling students to install a keylogger, write an essay with it turned on, then submit the essay plus the logs, and then the teacher figuring out how to replay the logs, versus b) telling students to write their essay at etherpad.com, they submit the url, teacher clicks on "replay." As for the matter of students being online, that's going to have to get solved anyway, because all the apps are moving online.
  - wheels 18y ago
    One thing that I'd find problematic with that is the inability to unplug to write. There are a lot of tasks (and as I recall you said the same in one of your essays) that I find I concentrate better with the internet unjacked. ...and even then I use WriteRoom, full screen green on black, no formatting options: http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/writeroom http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/writeroom
    - pg 18y ago
      It seems to work when disconnected, at least for a while. I'd guess that if working offline isn't already supported, it will be eventually.
  - olefoo 18y ago
    > because all the apps are moving online. I think that pendulum has almost reached the end of it's arc. There are a number of trends that are starting to pull in the opposite direction. From concerns about privacy and security to the proliferation of mobile computing, intermittent disconnection from the cloud has it's uses. Tools like Google Gears and the continued blurring of the line between desktop applications and web applications mean that it's easy to build applications where being connected enhances the experience considerably, but the essential functions are still there even if the network goes away.
    - axod 18y ago
      "There are a number of trends that are starting to pull in the opposite direction. From concerns about privacy and security" Ironically I think it's the tech crowd/geeks (us) who are most resistant to webapps. We can see the privacy,security,reliability issues. The average users however, cannot. They're already embracing webapps.
- ivankirigin 18y ago
  Teaching people to ignore the awesome parts of the internet is a fine skill to teach. It might be more valuable than the class you're writing for.
- rfunduk 18y ago
  'Letting' students use the internet while they're writing essays? I think I'm missing something. I've never written an essay anywhere but on a computer with regular stuff around, including a web browser, etc.
Radix 18y ago
I really liked this sentence I caught. "Launching lets you observe the collision between your presuppositions and the needs of actual users." I know, every word should tell, but I wish it had made it.
- davi 18y ago
  I noticed that sentence too, but my brain saw: "Launching lets you observe the collusion between your presuppositions and the needs of actual users." I went back, and you are right, it is collision. Collusion is more fun though. :)
unalone 18y ago
This is an incredible thing to watch! Can you do this with any piece of writing on Etherpad? What a great way of bringing attention to a start-up: make something that's inherently fascinating due to features. This is unlike anything online I've seen before because the functionality just doesn't exist anywhere else. So it's a great thing to watch and it also tells you about the service. I like that you keep constantly going back to eliminate unnecessary language. Something tells me that's the first and most obvious trait of watching good writers write: at the governor's school, when the writers would write on paper instead of on the computer, you could read a draft and see that emerging pattern of phrase after phrase, each building on the last. It's interesting seeing it happen on the computer.
- pg 18y ago
  Can you do this with any piece of writing on Etherpad? Anything you write with it now you will be able to play back like this soon. Etherpad is already saving all the keystrokes. They just haven't released the player yet. (This is a one-off prototype.)
  - jyothi 18y ago
    That is going to be a killer. However, it should be somewhere hidden and available only if people really want to be able to replay. Else it is going to be an over kill on their servers.
    - markessien 18y ago
      Not if everything is delivered in one blow and then played back with JS.
  - deleted 18y ago
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  - deleted 18y ago
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jodrellblank 18y ago
I convinced the founders to add a way to play them back You often talk about releasing early, building something people want, etc. Since you carry a lot of influence, and (I guess) invest in Etherpad, and they've adjusted it to your personal request - do you worry that this effect might give you a distorted view of how well Etherpad specifically, and YC startups generally, are building what people want?
- swombat 18y ago
  Convincing someone of something you believe in and abusing your influence are two very different things. I don't think pg implied that he bullied them into implementing this, only that he talked them into it. And I can't imagine that YC would last long if pg got into the habit of bullying its start-ups into implementing his personal requests.
  - wmeredith 18y ago
    I think it would last an even shorter amount of time if he never talked anyone in the YC program into anything.
- pg 18y ago
  I don't think they spent more than one man-day or so on this so far. Plus I'm pretty sure playback is something they would have built anyway.
- angstrom 18y ago
  Valid point, but I think it's worth looking at the potential benefits. The thing I always hate about writing is that I'm constantly saving copies off to the side. At the very least I would think snapshots would be invaluable, but once you have playback, you basically already have snapshots with high granularity. While solutions like DropBox or Sharepoint allow versioning and collaboration it's at a higher level. Maybe I've been spoiled by VMWare, but I love having branches of specific versions to fall back on and test things out. Why should writing be any different?
- thorax 18y ago
prakash 18y ago
This is absolutely brilliant!! If this were only available when you guys were writing code for Viaweb, and when you were writing On Lisp -- what a wonderful thing it would be to learn from. It would show the thought process behind what went into writing what you wrote!
Xichekolas 18y ago
Might I suggest, from the watcher's perspective, it'd be handy if the final feature sets the vertical scrollbar such that the currently playing change is on the screen? It might be kind of jerky during the editing stage, but it's better than scrolling around trying to find out where the action is. ;) What I learned from this is that I write very differently from the way you do. My first draft is almost straight stream of consciousness, and then I go back and reread and edit several times. You seem to make several attempts at each sentence before finding one you like, and then edit the whole thing. Of course, I may just not realize how I actually write, since I don't have a playback of anything of length to watch. What I'd really be interested in watching is some famous programmers working on code with this kind of playback. Not sure if it'd actually be enlightening, but it would be fun to experiment with.
- noahlt 18y ago
  > It might be kind of jerky during the editing stage, but it's better than scrolling around trying to find out where the action is. ;) With a bit of Javascript I'm sure you could make it scroll smoothly.
alyssumclimbs 18y ago
This 'feature' seems ripe for a MS Word add-on, if it catches on. I doubt everyone will abandon their word processing software and user Etherpad.
- jimbokun 18y ago
  "I doubt everyone will abandon their word processing software and user Etherpad." They will probably give up Word for something, eventually. Especially among the current generation, writing is something done online; a blog, an email, a tweet, writing on someone's wall. At some point, it stops making sense to have a word processor distinct from the web. Right now, Word has more features that people like than online writing tools, but that will change over time. Online writing tools are a more natural fit for collaboration and integration with words' final destinations. Microsoft could make the online tool that replaces Word, but it is probably too dangerous to their current revenue stream. I don't think they can get the same revenue for an online version of Word, and it would be difficult for them to rationalize trying a new business model that may never regain the revenue they get now. (And yes, I'm basically just making the Innovator's Dilemma argument for word processors.)
  - jodrellblank 18y ago
    Microsoft could make the online tool that replaces Word Something like Windows Live Writer 2009? http://jalaj.net/2009/01/22/enter-windows-live-writer-2009/ http://jalaj.net/2009/01/22/enter-windows-live-writer-2009/
    - jimbokun 18y ago
      "On running the installer ..." If it has an installer, it doesn't count as an online tool, as far as I'm concerned.
gcheong 18y ago
When can we have a playback of HN posts showing a time-lapse version of comments and up/down votes?
derwiki 18y ago
Going off of the "show your work" idea, is it possible to analyze the writing style to prove that it was -you- who wrote it? Or is there too much variation? There was a bad episode of Numb3rs where they used someone's "typing profile" to identify someone, so it just got me thinking :)
- lann 18y ago
  It's been done before, like the (now defunct?) BioPassword: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/tech/news/article_1295216.php/BioPassword_Using_keystroke_rhythm_to_authenticate_you http://www.monstersandcritics.com/tech/news/article_1295216.... If high-resolution timestamps for each keystroke aren't too much of a burden it seems like this would be straightforward to implement, given an algorithm like BioPassword's.
  - derwiki 18y ago
    It looks like BioPassword works best on short, often repeated phrases like login names and passwords. I'm not sure how it would work for larger, unpracticed blocks of text. Etherpad would also need to store information about the timing of when each key is pressed, and based on the demo it doesn't look like they're doing that.
TimothyFitz 18y ago
Indeed, I've written all of my posts on a combination of Darkroom and Etherpad. Etherpad lets me involve a couple editors who can make copy edits and suggestions while I'm still the draft.

by pg 18y ago

ttol 18y ago

That feature is neat and gives insight into the way people write. Would be just as interesting to see a playback of versioned source code files in SVN / CVS..

pg 18y ago
You can do that in Etherpad now. It grew out of a code editor the Appjets wrote for their own use.
jyothi 18y ago
That would be an amazing training tool. I have learnt the most by observing great engineers code, than reading tons of material. It just strikes at you the way they fork functions, how they name variables, logic, the way they would cut out/undo unnecessary statements and combine them to optimize code. It just reflects the way good programmers think when they code.

ponchopepe 18y ago

> think of the implications of this alone There are already non-webapp mouselog/keylog and replay applications. And besides, think of the implications of letting students be on the internet while they are writing essays.

alecst 18y ago
Can you provide links to some of these? I'd prefer a non-webapp version, since I have an intermittent internet connection.
- gleb 18y ago
  /usr/bin/script script -t 2> script.demo.time script.demo xemacs -nw # M-x tetris # ; play tetris now # C-x C-c ; exit emacs exit # watch tetris being played: scriptreplay script.demo.time script.demo script can create a "screencast" of any terminal session. This works pretty well, but probably is not the right solution for the education market pg is talking about :-)
pg 18y ago
It's different when it's built into a generic, web-based editor. Imagine the difference between a) telling students to install a keylogger, write an essay with it turned on, then submit the essay plus the logs, and then the teacher figuring out how to replay the logs, versus b) telling students to write their essay at etherpad.com, they submit the url, teacher clicks on "replay." As for the matter of students being online, that's going to have to get solved anyway, because all the apps are moving online.
- wheels 18y ago
  One thing that I'd find problematic with that is the inability to unplug to write. There are a lot of tasks (and as I recall you said the same in one of your essays) that I find I concentrate better with the internet unjacked. ...and even then I use WriteRoom, full screen green on black, no formatting options: http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/writeroom http://www.hogbaysoftware.com/products/writeroom
  - pg 18y ago
    It seems to work when disconnected, at least for a while. I'd guess that if working offline isn't already supported, it will be eventually.
- olefoo 18y ago
  > because all the apps are moving online. I think that pendulum has almost reached the end of it's arc. There are a number of trends that are starting to pull in the opposite direction. From concerns about privacy and security to the proliferation of mobile computing, intermittent disconnection from the cloud has it's uses. Tools like Google Gears and the continued blurring of the line between desktop applications and web applications mean that it's easy to build applications where being connected enhances the experience considerably, but the essential functions are still there even if the network goes away.
  - axod 18y ago
    "There are a number of trends that are starting to pull in the opposite direction. From concerns about privacy and security" Ironically I think it's the tech crowd/geeks (us) who are most resistant to webapps. We can see the privacy,security,reliability issues. The average users however, cannot. They're already embracing webapps.
ivankirigin 18y ago
Teaching people to ignore the awesome parts of the internet is a fine skill to teach. It might be more valuable than the class you're writing for.
rfunduk 18y ago
'Letting' students use the internet while they're writing essays? I think I'm missing something. I've never written an essay anywhere but on a computer with regular stuff around, including a web browser, etc.

Radix 18y ago

I really liked this sentence I caught. "Launching lets you observe the collision between your presuppositions and the needs of actual users." I know, every word should tell, but I wish it had made it.

davi 18y ago
I noticed that sentence too, but my brain saw: "Launching lets you observe the collusion between your presuppositions and the needs of actual users." I went back, and you are right, it is collision. Collusion is more fun though. :)

unalone 18y ago

This is an incredible thing to watch! Can you do this with any piece of writing on Etherpad? What a great way of bringing attention to a start-up: make something that's inherently fascinating due to features. This is unlike anything online I've seen before because the functionality just doesn't exist anywhere else. So it's a great thing to watch and it also tells you about the service. I like that you keep constantly going back to eliminate unnecessary language. Something tells me that's the first and most obvious trait of watching good writers write: at the governor's school, when the writers would write on paper instead of on the computer, you could read a draft and see that emerging pattern of phrase after phrase, each building on the last. It's interesting seeing it happen on the computer.

pg 18y ago
Can you do this with any piece of writing on Etherpad? Anything you write with it now you will be able to play back like this soon. Etherpad is already saving all the keystrokes. They just haven't released the player yet. (This is a one-off prototype.)
- jyothi 18y ago
  That is going to be a killer. However, it should be somewhere hidden and available only if people really want to be able to replay. Else it is going to be an over kill on their servers.
  - markessien 18y ago
    Not if everything is delivered in one blow and then played back with JS.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]

jodrellblank 18y ago

I convinced the founders to add a way to play them back You often talk about releasing early, building something people want, etc. Since you carry a lot of influence, and (I guess) invest in Etherpad, and they've adjusted it to your personal request - do you worry that this effect might give you a distorted view of how well Etherpad specifically, and YC startups generally, are building what people want?

swombat 18y ago
Convincing someone of something you believe in and abusing your influence are two very different things. I don't think pg implied that he bullied them into implementing this, only that he talked them into it. And I can't imagine that YC would last long if pg got into the habit of bullying its start-ups into implementing his personal requests.
- wmeredith 18y ago
  I think it would last an even shorter amount of time if he never talked anyone in the YC program into anything.
pg 18y ago
I don't think they spent more than one man-day or so on this so far. Plus I'm pretty sure playback is something they would have built anyway.
angstrom 18y ago
Valid point, but I think it's worth looking at the potential benefits. The thing I always hate about writing is that I'm constantly saving copies off to the side. At the very least I would think snapshots would be invaluable, but once you have playback, you basically already have snapshots with high granularity. While solutions like DropBox or Sharepoint allow versioning and collaboration it's at a higher level. Maybe I've been spoiled by VMWare, but I love having branches of specific versions to fall back on and test things out. Why should writing be any different?
thorax 18y ago

prakash 18y ago

This is absolutely brilliant!! If this were only available when you guys were writing code for Viaweb, and when you were writing On Lisp -- what a wonderful thing it would be to learn from. It would show the thought process behind what went into writing what you wrote!

Xichekolas 18y ago

Might I suggest, from the watcher's perspective, it'd be handy if the final feature sets the vertical scrollbar such that the currently playing change is on the screen? It might be kind of jerky during the editing stage, but it's better than scrolling around trying to find out where the action is. ;) What I learned from this is that I write very differently from the way you do. My first draft is almost straight stream of consciousness, and then I go back and reread and edit several times. You seem to make several attempts at each sentence before finding one you like, and then edit the whole thing. Of course, I may just not realize how I actually write, since I don't have a playback of anything of length to watch. What I'd really be interested in watching is some famous programmers working on code with this kind of playback. Not sure if it'd actually be enlightening, but it would be fun to experiment with.

noahlt 18y ago
> It might be kind of jerky during the editing stage, but it's better than scrolling around trying to find out where the action is. ;) With a bit of Javascript I'm sure you could make it scroll smoothly.

alyssumclimbs 18y ago

This 'feature' seems ripe for a MS Word add-on, if it catches on. I doubt everyone will abandon their word processing software and user Etherpad.

jimbokun 18y ago
"I doubt everyone will abandon their word processing software and user Etherpad." They will probably give up Word for something, eventually. Especially among the current generation, writing is something done online; a blog, an email, a tweet, writing on someone's wall. At some point, it stops making sense to have a word processor distinct from the web. Right now, Word has more features that people like than online writing tools, but that will change over time. Online writing tools are a more natural fit for collaboration and integration with words' final destinations. Microsoft could make the online tool that replaces Word, but it is probably too dangerous to their current revenue stream. I don't think they can get the same revenue for an online version of Word, and it would be difficult for them to rationalize trying a new business model that may never regain the revenue they get now. (And yes, I'm basically just making the Innovator's Dilemma argument for word processors.)
- jodrellblank 18y ago
  Microsoft could make the online tool that replaces Word Something like Windows Live Writer 2009? http://jalaj.net/2009/01/22/enter-windows-live-writer-2009/ http://jalaj.net/2009/01/22/enter-windows-live-writer-2009/
  - jimbokun 18y ago
    "On running the installer ..." If it has an installer, it doesn't count as an online tool, as far as I'm concerned.

gcheong 18y ago

When can we have a playback of HN posts showing a time-lapse version of comments and up/down votes?

derwiki 18y ago

Going off of the "show your work" idea, is it possible to analyze the writing style to prove that it was -you- who wrote it? Or is there too much variation? There was a bad episode of Numb3rs where they used someone's "typing profile" to identify someone, so it just got me thinking :)

lann 18y ago
It's been done before, like the (now defunct?) BioPassword: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/tech/news/article_1295216.php/BioPassword_Using_keystroke_rhythm_to_authenticate_you http://www.monstersandcritics.com/tech/news/article_1295216.... If high-resolution timestamps for each keystroke aren't too much of a burden it seems like this would be straightforward to implement, given an algorithm like BioPassword's.
- derwiki 18y ago
  It looks like BioPassword works best on short, often repeated phrases like login names and passwords. I'm not sure how it would work for larger, unpracticed blocks of text. Etherpad would also need to store information about the timing of when each key is pressed, and based on the demo it doesn't look like they're doing that.

TimothyFitz 18y ago

Indeed, I've written all of my posts on a combination of Darkroom and Etherpad. Etherpad lets me involve a couple editors who can make copy edits and suggestions while I'm still the draft.