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>one's chosen enemies must be simultaneously terrifyingly powerful and incompetent dunces I've got some bad news for you.

deleted 25d ago
[deleted]
pocksuppet 25d ago
At first I thought you were referring to Umberto Eco's laws of fascism: "Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as at the same time too strong and too weak." but it's subtly different, because incompetence is not weakness.
- Calazon 25d ago
  I read it as suggesting that AI models are simultaneously terrifyingly powerful and incompetent dunces.
  - devindotcom 25d ago
    no, it's the current administration, among others like musk.
    - Calazon 25d ago
      That is also very fair.
- devindotcom 25d ago
  heh, no. Eco is referring to how the white house casts groups like academics, immigrants, socialists, and trans people.
- pcstl 25d ago
  It is weakness in the long-term. It's pretty clear in how people talk about billionaires: They must somehow conclude that the people most successful within a system that rewards certain things are not competent because the things the system rewards are not what they think the system should reward (it is fine to believe the system rewards the wrong things, but people walk straight into denying that those people have skill even within the system, or they claim that skill within the bounds of the system does not reflect any "real" skill - totally ignoring that elites tend to stay elites even through, say, Communist uprisings). Hence how someone can say that Musk is "dumb" with a straight face.
  - konmok 25d ago
    I wouldn't really call cruelty or dishonesty a "skill".
    - pcstl 25d ago
      That's a choice, but the universe has no reason to respect it.
  - mapontosevenths 25d ago
    > the system rewards are not what they think the system should reward It's the grown-up version of nerdy kids hating "the jocks" in high school. We're all just a bunch of dumb kids. Maybe obsolete children, but still children when it counts. That said, Elon Musk celebrated cutting funding that fed starving children and supported cancer research by waving around a chainsaw on stage. The richest man on earth did this because he wanted lower taxes... for himself. When Anubis weighs his soul against the feather it's likely to completely destroy the scale.
    - pcstl 25d ago
      I'm not saying any of the people in charge are good people at all. I'm just saying that they are skilled at achieving their own goals, regardless of the morality or lack thereof of those goals.
      - pocksuppet 25d ago
        I don't even think that. I think half of them accidentally stumbled into success. Elon was kicked out of PayPal with a nice golden parachute so he wouldn't sue.
        pcstl 25d ago
        Regression to the mean is pretty nasty. Stumbling into success can make you a car dealership owner or something like that, but being consistently successful in business requires just about as much skill as being consistently successful in, say, chess.
pcstl 25d ago
I really don't find it coherent to call someone who you keep consistently losing to stupid.
- conception 25d ago
  Stupidity has always been terrifyingly powerful.
  - ben_w 25d ago
    Not really. Things can look stupid when we don't understand them, but there has to be some intelligence somewhere at some point even if the arrival of wealth then suffocates it with sycophants. If Musk or Trump or GWB were all *merely* the idiots they're often mocked as being, chances are we'd never have even heard of them. They almost certainly weren't even "merely average". Now, stupidity that arrives after the bank balance reads a billion dollars, that's terrifyingly powerful.
    - applfanboysbgon 25d ago
      1. Trump was born wealthy. There was no "arrival of wealth" that smothered the intelligence you suppose he might have used to earn the wealth, because he didn't earn it. 2. You don't understand. Trump is successful because of his stupidity, selfishness, and vile behaviour. Not despite it. In 2016, the Republican primary field had 20 or so candidates on a wide range of reasonableness. Trump crushed them all, because he most represents the average Republican voter. If he were more intelligent, or if he cared more about anyone other than himself, they would not have voted for him. His arrogance, lack of intelligence and morals is quite literally his strength because it's what makes him so relateable to the American masses.
      - edgyquant 25d ago
        There are two possibilities. One is that half the country are total idiots and the people leading them, and leading the country, are also total idiots who only got into power because half the country are, again, complete idiots below average intelligence. The other is that you are in a bubble and have been convinced that the leadership of the world’s premier superpower are below average intelligence, along with 70-80 million voters. The former is not something an intelligent person would believe, you have thrown out serious analysis for political theatre and memes and should rethink how you view the world. Now stop to consider that maybe actually half the country has a totally different worldview, and that their leadership, having reshaped global politics, is actually full of intelligent people who are cold and calculating. I know it’s harder to stomach, but just consider it for a moment.

deleted 25d ago

[deleted]

pocksuppet 25d ago

At first I thought you were referring to Umberto Eco's laws of fascism: "Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as at the same time too strong and too weak." but it's subtly different, because incompetence is not weakness.

Calazon 25d ago
I read it as suggesting that AI models are simultaneously terrifyingly powerful and incompetent dunces.
- devindotcom 25d ago
  no, it's the current administration, among others like musk.
  - Calazon 25d ago
    That is also very fair.
devindotcom 25d ago
heh, no. Eco is referring to how the white house casts groups like academics, immigrants, socialists, and trans people.
pcstl 25d ago
It is weakness in the long-term. It's pretty clear in how people talk about billionaires: They must somehow conclude that the people most successful within a system that rewards certain things are not competent because the things the system rewards are not what they think the system should reward (it is fine to believe the system rewards the wrong things, but people walk straight into denying that those people have skill even within the system, or they claim that skill within the bounds of the system does not reflect any "real" skill - totally ignoring that elites tend to stay elites even through, say, Communist uprisings). Hence how someone can say that Musk is "dumb" with a straight face.
- konmok 25d ago
  I wouldn't really call cruelty or dishonesty a "skill".
  - pcstl 25d ago
    That's a choice, but the universe has no reason to respect it.
- mapontosevenths 25d ago
  > the system rewards are not what they think the system should reward It's the grown-up version of nerdy kids hating "the jocks" in high school. We're all just a bunch of dumb kids. Maybe obsolete children, but still children when it counts. That said, Elon Musk celebrated cutting funding that fed starving children and supported cancer research by waving around a chainsaw on stage. The richest man on earth did this because he wanted lower taxes... for himself. When Anubis weighs his soul against the feather it's likely to completely destroy the scale.
  - pcstl 25d ago
    I'm not saying any of the people in charge are good people at all. I'm just saying that they are skilled at achieving their own goals, regardless of the morality or lack thereof of those goals.
    - pocksuppet 25d ago
      I don't even think that. I think half of them accidentally stumbled into success. Elon was kicked out of PayPal with a nice golden parachute so he wouldn't sue.
      - pcstl 25d ago
        Regression to the mean is pretty nasty. Stumbling into success can make you a car dealership owner or something like that, but being consistently successful in business requires just about as much skill as being consistently successful in, say, chess.

pcstl 25d ago

I really don't find it coherent to call someone who you keep consistently losing to stupid.

conception 25d ago
Stupidity has always been terrifyingly powerful.
- ben_w 25d ago
  Not really. Things can look stupid when we don't understand them, but there has to be some intelligence somewhere at some point even if the arrival of wealth then suffocates it with sycophants. If Musk or Trump or GWB were all *merely* the idiots they're often mocked as being, chances are we'd never have even heard of them. They almost certainly weren't even "merely average". Now, stupidity that arrives after the bank balance reads a billion dollars, that's terrifyingly powerful.
  - applfanboysbgon 25d ago
    1. Trump was born wealthy. There was no "arrival of wealth" that smothered the intelligence you suppose he might have used to earn the wealth, because he didn't earn it. 2. You don't understand. Trump is successful because of his stupidity, selfishness, and vile behaviour. Not despite it. In 2016, the Republican primary field had 20 or so candidates on a wide range of reasonableness. Trump crushed them all, because he most represents the average Republican voter. If he were more intelligent, or if he cared more about anyone other than himself, they would not have voted for him. His arrogance, lack of intelligence and morals is quite literally his strength because it's what makes him so relateable to the American masses.
    - edgyquant 25d ago
      There are two possibilities. One is that half the country are total idiots and the people leading them, and leading the country, are also total idiots who only got into power because half the country are, again, complete idiots below average intelligence. The other is that you are in a bubble and have been convinced that the leadership of the world’s premier superpower are below average intelligence, along with 70-80 million voters. The former is not something an intelligent person would believe, you have thrown out serious analysis for political theatre and memes and should rethink how you view the world. Now stop to consider that maybe actually half the country has a totally different worldview, and that their leadership, having reshaped global politics, is actually full of intelligent people who are cold and calculating. I know it’s harder to stomach, but just consider it for a moment.