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I say this with all possible respect, reverence even, for what Tarn Adams has accomplished and what continues to work on, but there may be no worse messenger fo

by tptacek 1mo ago

I say this with all possible respect, reverence even, for what Tarn Adams has accomplished and what continues to work on, but there may be no worse messenger for the problem of disintermediating game designers and creators from actual code authorship than the author of Dwarf Fortress. It's an amazing game that succeeds in spite of and not because of its code. Had Adams been able to use Opus or Sol when he started with DF, that game would be a broad cultural milestone today, and not just a nerd affectation.

shevy-java 1mo ago
This seems to be miss the topic. Isn't the topic about AI and how damaging it can be? I am not sure why you want to discredit the messenger; the message appears to be correct. That should be a better focus. > Had Adams been able to use Opus or Sol when he started with DF, that game would be a broad cultural milestone today, and not just a nerd affectation. Well, that is an assumption. You have to demonstrate this claim. Right now I do not believe that claim.
- Supermancho 1mo ago
  > the message appears to be correct. "in shambles because of AI" no. It's the same as it always was.
stryan 1mo ago
I don't think there's a way to really say a comment like this "with all possible respect" given the (albeit meager) content of the article. Either way, I'd be much more willing to bet that if Toady had Opus/Sol/whatever we wouldn't have Dwarf Fortress, we'd just have Rimworld: perhaps a technically better game, but not !FUN! in the same way Dwarf Fortress is fun.
- lobf 1mo ago
  Why do you think this?
- tptacek 1mo ago
  Why not? The code is famously convoluted and slow (see: dfhack). It's still an amazing accomplishment, but that doesn't make the code itself a challenge frontier models today aren't up to.
krapp 1mo ago
There is no universe in which Dwarf Fortress becomes a "cultural milestone." It's core concept and gameplay would never appeal to the mainstream. The premise that the only thing holding it back is not using an AI seems far fetched. How much game code have you looked at? If it shipped, chances are it's a goddamn mess. People made memes about Undertale's thousand-line switch statement. But it isn't the code quality that makes a game (unless it breaks, if it works literally no one cares) but the design and intent behind it. Using an AI wouldn't result in anything as unique or as innovative as Dwarf Fortress. It would just get something forgettable and mediocre to market faster.

by tptacek 1mo ago

shevy-java 1mo ago

This seems to be miss the topic. Isn't the topic about AI and how damaging it can be? I am not sure why you want to discredit the messenger; the message appears to be correct. That should be a better focus. > Had Adams been able to use Opus or Sol when he started with DF, that game would be a broad cultural milestone today, and not just a nerd affectation. Well, that is an assumption. You have to demonstrate this claim. Right now I do not believe that claim.

Supermancho 1mo ago
> the message appears to be correct. "in shambles because of AI" no. It's the same as it always was.

stryan 1mo ago

I don't think there's a way to really say a comment like this "with all possible respect" given the (albeit meager) content of the article. Either way, I'd be much more willing to bet that if Toady had Opus/Sol/whatever we wouldn't have Dwarf Fortress, we'd just have Rimworld: perhaps a technically better game, but not !FUN! in the same way Dwarf Fortress is fun.

lobf 1mo ago
Why do you think this?
tptacek 1mo ago
Why not? The code is famously convoluted and slow (see: dfhack). It's still an amazing accomplishment, but that doesn't make the code itself a challenge frontier models today aren't up to.

krapp 1mo ago

There is no universe in which Dwarf Fortress becomes a "cultural milestone." It's core concept and gameplay would never appeal to the mainstream. The premise that the only thing holding it back is not using an AI seems far fetched. How much game code have you looked at? If it shipped, chances are it's a goddamn mess. People made memes about Undertale's thousand-line switch statement. But it isn't the code quality that makes a game (unless it breaks, if it works literally no one cares) but the design and intent behind it. Using an AI wouldn't result in anything as unique or as innovative as Dwarf Fortress. It would just get something forgettable and mediocre to market faster.