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Please bring to the other models, and also please only apply the AI text watermarking only to EU citizens. I may not be able to tell when Claude writes about th

Please bring to the other models, and also please only apply the AI text watermarking only to EU citizens. I may not be able to tell when Claude writes about things i don't know, but in CC it writes about my code and it is obvious.

tyrabound 1mo ago
You’re probably better off organizing a campaign to pressure Congress to prohibit American corporations imposing foreign laws on Americans, which is what this text watermarking is, regardless of how you feel about it. I think it’s a precedent we really don’t want to go down if you believe in democracy and self-determination. It also clearly establishes or the very least moves in the direction that you don’t actually own or control the output of AI in any manner whatsoever, you’re just paying for it since Anthropic in this case can simply essentially brand/tag all your output that is based on not directly your own words, but a higher level process or methods that you use, including your instructions and how you structure your information and what your overall objective and goal is. Anthropic is branding it on the behest of the EU lew, which already is an entity that is diametrically opposed to democracy and self-determination based on its structure even if you ignore the fact that it violates the most fundamental concepts of self-determination in its direct contradiction of the UN Charter and implicitly the Universal Declaration of Human rights. What people done seem to be catching onto is that the EU is becoming the world dictatorship because the USA has simply had too many onerous people and that stupid constitution and its amendments that keep roadblocks world domination for the ruling class vampire.
- sroussey 1mo ago
  I think Congresspeople hearing that EU AI Act is forcing secret codes into the infrastructure of American technology across all industries is sufficient.
  - ctoth 1mo ago
    > I think Congresspeople hearing that EU AI Act is forcing secret codes into the infrastructure of American technology across all industries is sufficient. So, you think it's good to disconnect words from their actual meanings (lie) to low-information people! I doubt this will do much to congress, but it certainly teaches us something about the sort of mind who would suggest it.
    - sroussey 1mo ago
      It is simply a change in words invisible to anyone who does not have the detection API.
- demibabs 1mo ago
  I do not understand why people remain so up in arms. AI generated text being watermarked is universally good. What benefit is there to people believing that LLM text was actually human written?
  - DaSHacka 1mo ago
    Because the incentive has been changed from the true best output always, to a mix of "close to the best but not always" output. For the (majority) of us using Claude models for computing as a tool, obviously we're not going to be thrilled that our new tool will perform worse going forward.
    - hfhdjfjfjf 1mo ago
      > true best output always literally never how it has worked
    - demibabs 1mo ago
      Do you understand that LLMs are probabilistic? Ask a model the same question twice and you will get different results. So, how were you ever getting “the best result, always”?
    - jpleyden98 1mo ago
      Put the watermarked version head to head with the non-watermarked version. If you can't tell which one is better then how can you make any assumption about performance? For all you know performance is the same. So many people complaining about something they quite literally have zero evidence for.
      - sroussey 1mo ago
        标
  - akersten 1mo ago
    > generated text being watermarked is universally good. If it worked perfectly, maybe you could make this argument in a vacuum. It does not work perfectly. (It cannot. It is by definition a heuristic). That means there will be false positives. There is a chance those false positives ruin someone's career. See [0] for just how easy it is to push SotA "AI text detectors" in one direction or another. Now, with watermarks, instead of everyone to some extent understanding that AI text detectors are wishy washy woo, they are now Anthropic certified to detect an official AI watermark. With that kind of false confidence in hand, the people who trust the "computer says you plagiarized" machine are never going to believe you when you say "it can make mistakes," they're just going to fire you/take away your scholarship/cancel your grant/... This is all beside the fact that we should demand our tools work for us and not for some shadowy master. "Universally good," absolutely not. [0]: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-wouldnt-say-pangram-is-broken-but https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-wouldnt-say-pangram-i...
sroussey 1mo ago
"this watermark is invisible to anyone who does not have the detection API" 1. This is BS since i can detect it when it writes about my codebase 2. I do not want secret codes being written inside my codebase, or anyone else's codebase that i use. The constraints of how to code why eliminate it from code itself... but there is a lot riding on the word "may". And even if it is just comments, this might explain Claude's desire to write such long ones -- long enough to encode secret messages in out material.
- a2ff6eeb0 1mo ago
  What did you score on https://sgoedecke.github.io/watermark-quiz/ https://sgoedecke.github.io/watermark-quiz/ ?
  - sroussey 1mo ago
    On stuff I’m not familiar with, I don’t notice at all. So these examples are not illustrative. Give me three examples of explaining a bug in my code however, and I can pick it out immediately.
    - a2ff6eeb0 1mo ago
      So, you're claiming you're unfamiliar with the concept of a town, a traffic jam, or cooking a meal?
      - sroussey 1mo ago
        No, I mean that when constrained (like discussing a specific bug in code) the options are limited. SynthID specifically mentions something similar: "It is harder to watermark factual answers because the model has fewer alternative word choices available without altering accuracy." In the codebase, I do see the models finding alternative word choices -- and I hate them. Already in a highly technical latent space, it reaches for other highly technical word choices (which may be more accurate, but ones I am unfamiliar with -- like terms in ERP systems as it felt that was close but bring just technical jargon that i have to google what it is saying because i don't understand -- and i have to google the phase sentence as the words themselves are ok, just not how they are put together).
hirvi74 1mo ago
I am surprised Anthropic can use their models accurately solve this issue? Are different services for different users based on geolocation really that difficult? I thought a lot of services operated like this already.
iamflimflam1 1mo ago
My reading of the law was that watermarking is not required by it at all. It’s a convenient excuse for the companies that want to add watermarking.
- sroussey 1mo ago
  My read was that watermarking is not explicit requirement, but that it could be in something like metadata that goes with it (if generated a word doc, for example). But writing comments in your codebase, the EU will want a digital trail there.

tyrabound 1mo ago

You’re probably better off organizing a campaign to pressure Congress to prohibit American corporations imposing foreign laws on Americans, which is what this text watermarking is, regardless of how you feel about it. I think it’s a precedent we really don’t want to go down if you believe in democracy and self-determination. It also clearly establishes or the very least moves in the direction that you don’t actually own or control the output of AI in any manner whatsoever, you’re just paying for it since Anthropic in this case can simply essentially brand/tag all your output that is based on not directly your own words, but a higher level process or methods that you use, including your instructions and how you structure your information and what your overall objective and goal is. Anthropic is branding it on the behest of the EU lew, which already is an entity that is diametrically opposed to democracy and self-determination based on its structure even if you ignore the fact that it violates the most fundamental concepts of self-determination in its direct contradiction of the UN Charter and implicitly the Universal Declaration of Human rights. What people done seem to be catching onto is that the EU is becoming the world dictatorship because the USA has simply had too many onerous people and that stupid constitution and its amendments that keep roadblocks world domination for the ruling class vampire.

sroussey 1mo ago
I think Congresspeople hearing that EU AI Act is forcing secret codes into the infrastructure of American technology across all industries is sufficient.
- ctoth 1mo ago
  > I think Congresspeople hearing that EU AI Act is forcing secret codes into the infrastructure of American technology across all industries is sufficient. So, you think it's good to disconnect words from their actual meanings (lie) to low-information people! I doubt this will do much to congress, but it certainly teaches us something about the sort of mind who would suggest it.
  - sroussey 1mo ago
    It is simply a change in words invisible to anyone who does not have the detection API.
demibabs 1mo ago
I do not understand why people remain so up in arms. AI generated text being watermarked is universally good. What benefit is there to people believing that LLM text was actually human written?
- DaSHacka 1mo ago
  Because the incentive has been changed from the true best output always, to a mix of "close to the best but not always" output. For the (majority) of us using Claude models for computing as a tool, obviously we're not going to be thrilled that our new tool will perform worse going forward.
  - hfhdjfjfjf 1mo ago
    > true best output always literally never how it has worked
  - demibabs 1mo ago
    Do you understand that LLMs are probabilistic? Ask a model the same question twice and you will get different results. So, how were you ever getting “the best result, always”?
  - jpleyden98 1mo ago
    Put the watermarked version head to head with the non-watermarked version. If you can't tell which one is better then how can you make any assumption about performance? For all you know performance is the same. So many people complaining about something they quite literally have zero evidence for.
    - sroussey 1mo ago
      标
- akersten 1mo ago
  > generated text being watermarked is universally good. If it worked perfectly, maybe you could make this argument in a vacuum. It does not work perfectly. (It cannot. It is by definition a heuristic). That means there will be false positives. There is a chance those false positives ruin someone's career. See [0] for just how easy it is to push SotA "AI text detectors" in one direction or another. Now, with watermarks, instead of everyone to some extent understanding that AI text detectors are wishy washy woo, they are now Anthropic certified to detect an official AI watermark. With that kind of false confidence in hand, the people who trust the "computer says you plagiarized" machine are never going to believe you when you say "it can make mistakes," they're just going to fire you/take away your scholarship/cancel your grant/... This is all beside the fact that we should demand our tools work for us and not for some shadowy master. "Universally good," absolutely not. [0]: https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-wouldnt-say-pangram-is-broken-but https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/i-wouldnt-say-pangram-i...

sroussey 1mo ago

"this watermark is invisible to anyone who does not have the detection API" 1. This is BS since i can detect it when it writes about my codebase 2. I do not want secret codes being written inside my codebase, or anyone else's codebase that i use. The constraints of how to code why eliminate it from code itself... but there is a lot riding on the word "may". And even if it is just comments, this might explain Claude's desire to write such long ones -- long enough to encode secret messages in out material.

a2ff6eeb0 1mo ago
What did you score on https://sgoedecke.github.io/watermark-quiz/ https://sgoedecke.github.io/watermark-quiz/ ?
- sroussey 1mo ago
  On stuff I’m not familiar with, I don’t notice at all. So these examples are not illustrative. Give me three examples of explaining a bug in my code however, and I can pick it out immediately.
  - a2ff6eeb0 1mo ago
    So, you're claiming you're unfamiliar with the concept of a town, a traffic jam, or cooking a meal?
    - sroussey 1mo ago
      No, I mean that when constrained (like discussing a specific bug in code) the options are limited. SynthID specifically mentions something similar: "It is harder to watermark factual answers because the model has fewer alternative word choices available without altering accuracy." In the codebase, I do see the models finding alternative word choices -- and I hate them. Already in a highly technical latent space, it reaches for other highly technical word choices (which may be more accurate, but ones I am unfamiliar with -- like terms in ERP systems as it felt that was close but bring just technical jargon that i have to google what it is saying because i don't understand -- and i have to google the phase sentence as the words themselves are ok, just not how they are put together).

hirvi74 1mo ago

I am surprised Anthropic can use their models accurately solve this issue? Are different services for different users based on geolocation really that difficult? I thought a lot of services operated like this already.

iamflimflam1 1mo ago

My reading of the law was that watermarking is not required by it at all. It’s a convenient excuse for the companies that want to add watermarking.

sroussey 1mo ago
My read was that watermarking is not explicit requirement, but that it could be in something like metadata that goes with it (if generated a word doc, for example). But writing comments in your codebase, the EU will want a digital trail there.