6 ms·

We got into this mess because people wanted Facebook to have age verification, and MZ decided to push the responsibility on to OSes. The result looks to me lik

We got into this mess because people wanted Facebook to have age verification, and MZ decided to push the responsibility on to OSes. The result looks to me like Facebook will ban access from non-approved OSes like Linux. Android will still be allowed, GrapheneOS probably not.

johnnyanmac 2mo ago
Facebook was the excuse (and there's a no zero chance Meta funded the initiative themselves). The government's worldwide jumped on it so quickly partially becsuse they've been trying to find aan excuse to control the internet for decades. Never dismiss how quick they are to push stuff like this but how slow they are to enact actual positive change for the people.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  But California AB1043 is an anti-control law.
  - johnnyanmac 2mo ago
    It's one of the better implementations, but it's still ultimately a law made to give controlling bodies more information about a previously anonymous activity. It's still a foot in the door.
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      It makes it illegal for them to have as much information as they already have. Therefore it requires them to delete information.
vdfs 2mo ago
That would be a big win for linux users
- frameset 2mo ago
  I've heard that joke from Linux users when it comes to anti-cheat. Which OS is better for gaming? Windows or Linux? A: Linux, because you can't play League of Legends
  - Gangway0829 2mo ago
    Freedom from League of legends AND Facebook? Linux Torvalds just can't stop winning
- foresto 2mo ago
  Until adoption expands beyond Facebook to services that we want. Or to things that we need, like medical care, government interactions, and financial services. People shouldn't have to choose between safety features like those in Graphene OS and participation in society.
  - televisionsaval 2mo ago
    It would be frustrating, but the group that is excluded from online services today tends to be low status and may benefit greatly when a tech elite with connections, status and special interest groups finds itself excluded.
  - Elucalidavah 2mo ago
    That will help teach people some compartmentalization. Need to access government service, or use facebook for work? Use a separate cheapo smartphone. I wonder how feasible is it to use a separate phone and access it remotely from the main phone.
    - me-vs-cat 2mo ago
      I wonder how much more surveillance they can feasibly justify to prevent remote access to new secure phones from old, insecure, non-compliant devices used by Elucalidavah and other un-American activists. Think of the children!
gonzalohm 2mo ago
How do you ban access to a website based on the OS of the user?
- mirashii 2mo ago
  By requiring hardware attestation, like Private Access Tokens in iOS/MacOS (see https://blog.cloudflare.com/eliminating-captchas-on-iphones-and-macs-using-new-standard/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/eliminating-captchas-on-iphones-... for example) and Web Environment Integrity and its successors ( https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/Web-Environment-Integrity/blob/main/explainer.md https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/Web-Environment-In... ).
  - gonzalohm 2mo ago
    That sounds horrible
    - teddyh 2mo ago
      You don’t say. Here are some things to radicalize you: • 2012: <https://memex.craphound.com/2012/01/10/lockdown-the-coming-war-on-general-purpose-computing/ https://memex.craphound.com/2012/01/10/lockdown-the-coming-w...> • 2003: <https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/> • 1997: <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html.en https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html.en>
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
      - cyanydeez 2mo ago
        1980: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-society/article/abs/keeping-children-safe-is-good-business-the-enterprise-of-child-safety-in-the-age-of-reagan/809D1927F7F58447F662DB5BB0DFCD07 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-socie...
cyanydeez 2mo ago
"people" didn't ask for age verification; they asked for Facebook to be shut down because it's a social hazard for children.
ajsnigrutin 2mo ago
TBH, OS based parental filters are the optimal solution here, especially if implemented in a proper way. Kids don't buy phones and computers, parents do. When setting up the account for the first time, the parents could set the account to be an "underage one", all the apps, browsers, etc., would get the USER_IS_UNDERAGE flag and filter content according to that. No need for every site to ask and verify the age, just set the date of birth at the time of purchase, set a parental password (for possible future changes, reselling, etc.) and prohibit formats/wipes/factory resets without a parental password being entered. The clerks in telco stores could even help with the first setup of that. Same could be easily implemented in linux, via some user flag set by the su/sudo user during the first eg. ubuntu install.
- lokar 2mo ago
  That’s pretty much what the law does
- rebeccaskinner 2mo ago
  on-device filtering is the right way to go, but it shouldn’t be a matter of sending metadata about the user to a service- instead services should provide standard metadata about the content to the device and the device can choose what, if anything, to display. This preserves privacy better by keeping more information about the user local, and gives people better tools to decide what metadata categories they want to filter- for their kids and for themselves.
  - ajsnigrutin 2mo ago
    That's much harder to implement. If you ban advertising eg. online casinos to underge users, the service would have to send two different ads (one 18+ and one for younger people too), and the browser would have to decide which one to play. Same for eg searching on google, browsers would have to filter out every <div> with adult content, meaning half the page would be empty, but with a browser "underage" flag, google could just turn on safe search and not allow turning it off.
    - 2mo ago
narmiouh 2mo ago
I'm not sure it is very bad that facebook won't be accessible from Linux.
- BoxwoodSeed 2mo ago
  It won't be only facebook in the long run. Once this works for facebook more and more sites will be pressured to use age verification by law. Once that works well enough it will probably come for all sites, even ones that don't really need it. Take a look at the cookie law and how people handled that to see a recent example.
  - psd1 2mo ago
    I've spent a hot minute trying to summarise Mat Duggan and failing, so please forgive a link drop in service of not botching the cookie banner argument: https://matduggan.com/you-know-gdpr-is-good-based-on-who-hates-it/ https://matduggan.com/you-know-gdpr-is-good-based-on-who-hat... I hold values which lead to conflicting views and opinions, which i therefore hold lightly and attempt to balance. No action or inaction is a perfect solution to a wicked problem. - yes, people should be free to do whatever they want with their computers - yes, people should have the freedom to exercise their independent choices - unfortunately, there is no such thing as independent choice (unless, maybe, you were already living as a hermit) - it is ostrichism to pretend that zuckerberg (to use him as shorthand) has not unilaterally and unaccountably engineered society to his own ends - society has shown considerable appetite to rein him (etc) in, for legitimate reasons - i do not, generally, support banning harmful things when stakeholders exist who favour those things - i also do not think that the existence of stakeholders who benefit should excuse all harm - therefore, this ugly compromise is approximately no worse than the least bad course of action or inaction Things are shit. We are in shit. For all of history, we have always been in some or other grade of shit. We can sometimes choose between different piles of shit, but "not being in shit" is not an option. I find horseshit less objectionable than catshit, and so do many others; so here we are, actively jumping into horseshit.
bentt 2mo ago
Can’t think of a better outcome than Meta guaranteeing all parents that Linux is the safest OS for their kids. Steam Machines under every Christmas tree.
WD-42 2mo ago
> The result looks to me like Facebook will ban access from non-approved OSes like Linux Oh no! Anyways…
dfxm12 2mo ago
We got into this mess long before this, when we decided it was ok to trade freedom at the hint of protecting children, without considering the actual merits of the situation. Look at the horsemen of the infoacalypse. Then we decided we should punish ourselves rather than expect/require big business make safe products.
DesiLurker 2mo ago
will that include other FB services like whatsapp and Insta? Given how unethical FB is it highly likely they will try to ban those services too in hope for stirring discontent.
insane_dreamer 2mo ago
> Facebook will ban access from non-approved OSes like Linux. excellent! won't have to worry about my kids wanting a FB account -- it just won't be accessible

johnnyanmac 2mo ago

Facebook was the excuse (and there's a no zero chance Meta funded the initiative themselves). The government's worldwide jumped on it so quickly partially becsuse they've been trying to find aan excuse to control the internet for decades. Never dismiss how quick they are to push stuff like this but how slow they are to enact actual positive change for the people.

inigyou 2mo ago
But California AB1043 is an anti-control law.
- johnnyanmac 2mo ago
  It's one of the better implementations, but it's still ultimately a law made to give controlling bodies more information about a previously anonymous activity. It's still a foot in the door.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    It makes it illegal for them to have as much information as they already have. Therefore it requires them to delete information.

vdfs 2mo ago

That would be a big win for linux users

frameset 2mo ago
I've heard that joke from Linux users when it comes to anti-cheat. Which OS is better for gaming? Windows or Linux? A: Linux, because you can't play League of Legends
- Gangway0829 2mo ago
  Freedom from League of legends AND Facebook? Linux Torvalds just can't stop winning
foresto 2mo ago
Until adoption expands beyond Facebook to services that we want. Or to things that we need, like medical care, government interactions, and financial services. People shouldn't have to choose between safety features like those in Graphene OS and participation in society.
- televisionsaval 2mo ago
  It would be frustrating, but the group that is excluded from online services today tends to be low status and may benefit greatly when a tech elite with connections, status and special interest groups finds itself excluded.
- Elucalidavah 2mo ago
  That will help teach people some compartmentalization. Need to access government service, or use facebook for work? Use a separate cheapo smartphone. I wonder how feasible is it to use a separate phone and access it remotely from the main phone.
  - me-vs-cat 2mo ago
    I wonder how much more surveillance they can feasibly justify to prevent remote access to new secure phones from old, insecure, non-compliant devices used by Elucalidavah and other un-American activists. Think of the children!

gonzalohm 2mo ago

How do you ban access to a website based on the OS of the user?

mirashii 2mo ago
By requiring hardware attestation, like Private Access Tokens in iOS/MacOS (see https://blog.cloudflare.com/eliminating-captchas-on-iphones-and-macs-using-new-standard/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/eliminating-captchas-on-iphones-... for example) and Web Environment Integrity and its successors ( https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/Web-Environment-Integrity/blob/main/explainer.md https://github.com/explainers-by-googlers/Web-Environment-In... ).
- gonzalohm 2mo ago
  That sounds horrible
  - teddyh 2mo ago
    You don’t say. Here are some things to radicalize you: • 2012: <https://memex.craphound.com/2012/01/10/lockdown-the-coming-war-on-general-purpose-computing/ https://memex.craphound.com/2012/01/10/lockdown-the-coming-w...> • 2003: <https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/ https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/digital-imprimatur/> • 1997: <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html.en https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html.en>
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - cyanydeez 2mo ago
      1980: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-society/article/abs/keeping-children-safe-is-good-business-the-enterprise-of-child-safety-in-the-age-of-reagan/809D1927F7F58447F662DB5BB0DFCD07 https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/enterprise-and-socie...

cyanydeez 2mo ago

"people" didn't ask for age verification; they asked for Facebook to be shut down because it's a social hazard for children.

ajsnigrutin 2mo ago

TBH, OS based parental filters are the optimal solution here, especially if implemented in a proper way. Kids don't buy phones and computers, parents do. When setting up the account for the first time, the parents could set the account to be an "underage one", all the apps, browsers, etc., would get the USER_IS_UNDERAGE flag and filter content according to that. No need for every site to ask and verify the age, just set the date of birth at the time of purchase, set a parental password (for possible future changes, reselling, etc.) and prohibit formats/wipes/factory resets without a parental password being entered. The clerks in telco stores could even help with the first setup of that. Same could be easily implemented in linux, via some user flag set by the su/sudo user during the first eg. ubuntu install.

lokar 2mo ago
That’s pretty much what the law does
rebeccaskinner 2mo ago
on-device filtering is the right way to go, but it shouldn’t be a matter of sending metadata about the user to a service- instead services should provide standard metadata about the content to the device and the device can choose what, if anything, to display. This preserves privacy better by keeping more information about the user local, and gives people better tools to decide what metadata categories they want to filter- for their kids and for themselves.
- ajsnigrutin 2mo ago
  That's much harder to implement. If you ban advertising eg. online casinos to underge users, the service would have to send two different ads (one 18+ and one for younger people too), and the browser would have to decide which one to play. Same for eg searching on google, browsers would have to filter out every <div> with adult content, meaning half the page would be empty, but with a browser "underage" flag, google could just turn on safe search and not allow turning it off.
  - 2mo ago

narmiouh 2mo ago

I'm not sure it is very bad that facebook won't be accessible from Linux.

BoxwoodSeed 2mo ago
It won't be only facebook in the long run. Once this works for facebook more and more sites will be pressured to use age verification by law. Once that works well enough it will probably come for all sites, even ones that don't really need it. Take a look at the cookie law and how people handled that to see a recent example.
- psd1 2mo ago
  I've spent a hot minute trying to summarise Mat Duggan and failing, so please forgive a link drop in service of not botching the cookie banner argument: https://matduggan.com/you-know-gdpr-is-good-based-on-who-hates-it/ https://matduggan.com/you-know-gdpr-is-good-based-on-who-hat... I hold values which lead to conflicting views and opinions, which i therefore hold lightly and attempt to balance. No action or inaction is a perfect solution to a wicked problem. - yes, people should be free to do whatever they want with their computers - yes, people should have the freedom to exercise their independent choices - unfortunately, there is no such thing as independent choice (unless, maybe, you were already living as a hermit) - it is ostrichism to pretend that zuckerberg (to use him as shorthand) has not unilaterally and unaccountably engineered society to his own ends - society has shown considerable appetite to rein him (etc) in, for legitimate reasons - i do not, generally, support banning harmful things when stakeholders exist who favour those things - i also do not think that the existence of stakeholders who benefit should excuse all harm - therefore, this ugly compromise is approximately no worse than the least bad course of action or inaction Things are shit. We are in shit. For all of history, we have always been in some or other grade of shit. We can sometimes choose between different piles of shit, but "not being in shit" is not an option. I find horseshit less objectionable than catshit, and so do many others; so here we are, actively jumping into horseshit.

bentt 2mo ago

Can’t think of a better outcome than Meta guaranteeing all parents that Linux is the safest OS for their kids. Steam Machines under every Christmas tree.

WD-42 2mo ago

> The result looks to me like Facebook will ban access from non-approved OSes like Linux Oh no! Anyways…

dfxm12 2mo ago

We got into this mess long before this, when we decided it was ok to trade freedom at the hint of protecting children, without considering the actual merits of the situation. Look at the horsemen of the infoacalypse. Then we decided we should punish ourselves rather than expect/require big business make safe products.

DesiLurker 2mo ago

will that include other FB services like whatsapp and Insta? Given how unethical FB is it highly likely they will try to ban those services too in hope for stirring discontent.

insane_dreamer 2mo ago

> Facebook will ban access from non-approved OSes like Linux. excellent! won't have to worry about my kids wanting a FB account -- it just won't be accessible