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If EU wants to be superpower, we need more European integration and less of national sovereignty. Unfortunately it will never happen and we are doomed to become

by azan_ 2mo ago

If EU wants to be superpower, we need more European integration and less of national sovereignty. Unfortunately it will never happen and we are doomed to become more and more marginalised.

somenameforme 2mo ago
When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. The efforts to centralize power seem to be exactly what's causing the divisions. You have highly partisan leaders trying to dictate policy to countries that lean in very different directions. That's not going to lead to good things. Stable empires have always been those that offered the greatest degrees of sovereignty to those under their rule, and I think that this should be somewhat self evident. When you try to enforce conformity across an empire, you're going to face resistance and even the mightiest of empires cannot sustain itself without a solid internal foundation.
- azan_ 2mo ago
  > When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. Good luck showing causality here. Single EU nations have no way of competing with EU or China until we have real single market. In theory we have single market, but in practice every country introduces regulations on top of European ones and extending to other European countries is huge pain in the ass (and costs fortune).
- eloisant 2mo ago
  When was that coalition of nations? European countries were literally at each other throats until 1945, then we gradually built the European Union.
  - somenameforme 2mo ago
    I am referring to the past when there was less divisive leadership. I think the good things EU offers are generally a great idea - ease of transport, trade, common markets, common currency (* - not so certain on this one, but I'm tentatively positive), and so on. But when you do things like force countries to accept immigrants they may not want to accept, or demand cultural conformity on issues that are not well received, you're undermining your union. Historically religion is a great example here, as it was always the thing that divided people the most. And the Empires that thrived were those that allowed people to maintain and practice their own religion. In modern times socio-political values largely act in the same role, and also form the same divisions. The only difference is it just comes from personal ideology instead of scripture. Unfortunately we still seem largely stuck at the era of calling each other blasphemers and calling for crusades.
    - owebmaster 2mo ago
      > Iam referring to the past when there was less divisive leadership. Are you referring to what period?
      - somenameforme 1mo ago
        Certainly prior to immigration being an issue. Also probably prior to common currency - as I said I'm not yet entirely certain on my views of a common currency. So I suppose things have been getting exponentially worse, but perhaps a key inflection point would be the Maastricht Treaty, although the EU's economic peak predates even that by about a decade.
- matteoraso 2mo ago
  But the EU was never meant to be a loose forum of nations. From the very beginning, the Single European Act made it clear that the intention was to integrate the member states into a single union, "speaking ever increasingly with one voice".[0] [0]https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11986U/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
  - mike_hearn 1mo ago
    Indeed. It was a bad idea from day one.

by azan_ 2mo ago

If EU wants to be superpower, we need more European integration and less of national sovereignty. Unfortunately it will never happen and we are doomed to become more and more marginalised.

somenameforme 2mo ago

When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. The efforts to centralize power seem to be exactly what's causing the divisions. You have highly partisan leaders trying to dictate policy to countries that lean in very different directions. That's not going to lead to good things. Stable empires have always been those that offered the greatest degrees of sovereignty to those under their rule, and I think that this should be somewhat self evident. When you try to enforce conformity across an empire, you're going to face resistance and even the mightiest of empires cannot sustain itself without a solid internal foundation.

azan_ 2mo ago
> When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. Good luck showing causality here. Single EU nations have no way of competing with EU or China until we have real single market. In theory we have single market, but in practice every country introduces regulations on top of European ones and extending to other European countries is huge pain in the ass (and costs fortune).
eloisant 2mo ago
When was that coalition of nations? European countries were literally at each other throats until 1945, then we gradually built the European Union.
- somenameforme 2mo ago
  I am referring to the past when there was less divisive leadership. I think the good things EU offers are generally a great idea - ease of transport, trade, common markets, common currency (* - not so certain on this one, but I'm tentatively positive), and so on. But when you do things like force countries to accept immigrants they may not want to accept, or demand cultural conformity on issues that are not well received, you're undermining your union. Historically religion is a great example here, as it was always the thing that divided people the most. And the Empires that thrived were those that allowed people to maintain and practice their own religion. In modern times socio-political values largely act in the same role, and also form the same divisions. The only difference is it just comes from personal ideology instead of scripture. Unfortunately we still seem largely stuck at the era of calling each other blasphemers and calling for crusades.
  - owebmaster 2mo ago
    > Iam referring to the past when there was less divisive leadership. Are you referring to what period?
    - somenameforme 1mo ago
      Certainly prior to immigration being an issue. Also probably prior to common currency - as I said I'm not yet entirely certain on my views of a common currency. So I suppose things have been getting exponentially worse, but perhaps a key inflection point would be the Maastricht Treaty, although the EU's economic peak predates even that by about a decade.
matteoraso 2mo ago
But the EU was never meant to be a loose forum of nations. From the very beginning, the Single European Act made it clear that the intention was to integrate the member states into a single union, "speaking ever increasingly with one voice".[0] [0]https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:11986U/TXT https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELE...
- mike_hearn 1mo ago
  Indeed. It was a bad idea from day one.