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These debates are hard to watch. 'Loss of sovereignty' for some reason is perfectly fine for Iceland, Switzerland and Norway, but not UK or others wanting to le

These debates are hard to watch. 'Loss of sovereignty' for some reason is perfectly fine for Iceland, Switzerland and Norway, but not UK or others wanting to leave. 'Fisheries' was a small but founding and perennial concern before and during Brexit but they were labelled 'ugly nationalists'. The EU has benefits obviously but it's been failing Europe in critical ways for about 20 yeas now, and the crazy paradox is that the nationalist threat of Germany's withdrawal from the Euro itself - for really stupid 'stated' reasons, might actually be beneficial for very smart 'actual' reasons, as the strong currency favours Germany over everyone else. The EU is in bad need of reform, much like FIFA or IOC or the hopelessly broken 2 party system in the US, it likely never will. Very ugly nationalists may come and tear it apart. Nominally, I hope Iceland joins but it's not going to help anything very much.

xyzelement 2mo ago
[flagged]
- andrepd 2mo ago
  A maneauvor whereupon a foreign power allows as many people into a small enclave as already live there (literally 60k into a territory of 80k) cannot be called anything other than "invasion". When did Mexico conspire to help 60k people breach into Texas? Let me know and we can have that conversation, maybe I missed it. As a side-note it was the "dangerous communist leftist" Sanchez which swiftly took control of the situation and defended what was in effect an external EU border, while Melloni et al rubbed their hands and tried to score some cheap points while doing fuck all to help. Food for thought if you ask me...
  - jayGlow 2mo ago
    there are several hundred thousand illegal crossings in Texas every year. the government might not be involved but there certainly are organizations involved in this.
  - somenameforme 2mo ago
    The US situation is more nuanced than you're framing it as. Even in Mexico there's largely negative sentiment against illegal immigration, as they also suffer from it with the caravans composed primarily of large numbers of young unattached males from a mish mash of places in South America pass through Mexico. They don't tend to leave happiness in their wake. The majority of Mexicans (55%) want them forcibly deported with a slightly smaller majority (51%) of supporting using the National Guard to carry out and enforce such deportations. [1] Nobody knows exactly how many have come over, but there are estimated to be around 15 million illegal immigrants in the US, primarily via the southern border. For scale, the largest city in the US is NYC with about 8.5 million people. The 10th largest is Fort Worth, Texas with about 1 million. And that's after multiple waves of amnesty legalized millions more, which obviously did nothing but further incentivize more illegal immigration, exactly as in Spain. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/unauthorized-immigrants-face-public-backlash-in-mexico-survey-finds/2019/07/16/f7fc5d12-a75e-11e9-a3a6-ab670962db05_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/unauthoriz... [1] - https://archive.is/KruVX https://archive.is/KruVX
    - ExoticPearTree 2mo ago
      So the question becomes, since Mexico is really really huge, why doesn’t the Mexican governemt do anything about these caravans? Not to mention that Mexico is pretty narrow at its southern end.
      - somenameforme 2mo ago
        The border between Mexico and Guatemala is more than 500 miles long. Another issue is think about what's involved in stopping a thousand young males, plenty of them ready to fight. The reason these groups come in 'caravans' is because it makes it difficult to stop them without resorting to inhumane actions. And a thousand is fairly small relative to the size some of them reach. Another issue is money. Imagine you spend "only" $1000 per deported illegal immigrant, and in reality it's probably going to be substantially, if not magnitudes, more after all costs are accounted for. That'd already be tens of billions of dollars given that you're speaking of a problem on the scale of tens of millions.
- dEnigma 2mo ago
  Do you have an example of one of these texts that called the event in Ceuta an "invasion" but at the same time distanced itself from the American Right?
  - slazaro 2mo ago
    Sounds like the Goomba fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goomba_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goomba_fallacy
- scrollaway 2mo ago
  “So people sending requests to my web server is fine, but when I send ten thousand requests per second to other people’s web servers suddenly they call it a DDoS! Very unfair.”
- pepperoni_pizza 2mo ago
  What a coincidence that someone posting anti-EU stuff would use Russian expression
techpression 2mo ago
The never ending creeping need for more power tends to have these results. EU will either collapse or become a mega state that will later collapse, the problem is mostly that people view things in terms of elections, but downfall happens during much longer periods of time.
- bluegatty 2mo ago
  The most likely outcome is that the EU is more or less what it is now for the decades to come, and the lack of reform costs significantly in terms of progress, and that Europe misses out on leading key industrial elements and becomes less relevant to global affairs especially as a lot of so-called 'global south' countries become more successful. The dynamic of Europe sending all the talent to US is probably just going to continue as it is. Angela Merkel used to be my favourite politician because I thought she was so 'pragmatic' but I think in retrospect she was basically 'do nothing, kick the can down the road, don't rock the boat'. In some ways, the 'second most dangerous' kind of politician because it's so alluring to even reasonable people. The kinds of reforms that the EU needs ... which both re-instill a sense of national dynamism but at the same time provide even deeper integration other areas aka capital markets, defence ... almost nobody is talking about. 5 years into a conflict right on the borders, still can't get full sanctions, still buying Russian carbons, still can't get real access to that $100B Russian money, still totally dependent on the US, still have no proper munitions inventory, still don't have proper defence against ballistic missiles aka huge existential gaps in defence capabilities when the wolf is right at the door. The CIA had to visit Kremlin few days ago to warn against NATO attack is basically admission that Europe, 80 years after WW2 is not fully sovereign. It was daddy DJT that still to this day, is the one at the table, doing the talking. Not Von Der Leyen, not anyone from Europe ... but an American. The rise of 'ugly nationalism' may cause pro-EU people to rally and defend broken systems instead of reforming. There is a path through that storm that is a wining outcome however...
  - WarmWash 2mo ago
    The EU is cooked unless they can figure out domestic industry. They currently have a US tech stack because they strangled Euro tech in the cradle, and now that things are rough with the US, they are looking to China to be their new, err, "trading partner". Anything other than realize they went way to far with "kill enterprise, embrace relaxation" mindset. Trust beyond anything else, when money gets to be tight, and the lavish promised benefits of the state start to dry up, the member states will pull swords on each other faster than anyone else.
ngruhn 2mo ago
> The EU has benefits obviously but it's been failing Europe in critical ways for about 20 yeas now I like those benefits: The shared currency, easy travel, they killed roaming fees! Also they're the only ones seriously taking on big tech. They made Apple ditch their dumb ass lightning cable.
- andrepd 2mo ago
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- runarberg 2mo ago
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  - GlacierFox 2mo ago
    "Another problem is border fascism. Europe has open borders internally, but very closed borders externally. The external borders are being militarized and increasingly hostile towards immigrants and asylum seekers. European politicians are showing increasingly fascistic behavior towards the borders. It is bad, and inhumane, and it is braking Europe apart." What planet are you living on? Border fascism? What? 70,000 'migrants' crossed into Cueta a short while back and the place is in turmoil now. "European politicians are showing increasingly fascistic behavior towards the borders" Where do people like you come from? I'm always interested in this utterly surreal take on enforcing the border of your own country, like that's now fascist. What's going on here? There's not many positions that leave me utterly perplexed. I'm sincerely asking, how you hold your position on this? What have you experienced in life to end up with these opinions? What benefit is flooding Europe with literally anyone from all the backward cultured shit holes from around the world?
    - runarberg 2mo ago
      What I have experienced is being in an international relationship and having to have to go through the (legal) immigration process twice. First by my married spouse immigrating to Iceland, and then again by me, and Icelandic citizen moving to the USA. What I have heard are people being deported from Europe, immigrants unable to move to the place they want to seek better life, asylum seekers sent back to the dangerous situations they were fleeing, or worse to third countries they have no relations with, exile being used as punishment against some criminals based on their country of origin, etc. etc. Europe is increasingly becoming a surveillance hellhole, personal rights are being stripped away, privacy is being abolished under the guise of “protecting our borders”. This is border fascism, and Europe is better off without it. Immigrants, no matter how many millions, can never cause the same harm to a fellow working European as a politician who stripes away your human rights.
azan_ 2mo ago
If EU wants to be superpower, we need more European integration and less of national sovereignty. Unfortunately it will never happen and we are doomed to become more and more marginalised.
- somenameforme 2mo ago
  When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. The efforts to centralize power seem to be exactly what's causing the divisions. You have highly partisan leaders trying to dictate policy to countries that lean in very different directions. That's not going to lead to good things. Stable empires have always been those that offered the greatest degrees of sovereignty to those under their rule, and I think that this should be somewhat self evident. When you try to enforce conformity across an empire, you're going to face resistance and even the mightiest of empires cannot sustain itself without a solid internal foundation.
  - azan_ 2mo ago
    > When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. Good luck showing causality here. Single EU nations have no way of competing with EU or China until we have real single market. In theory we have single market, but in practice every country introduces regulations on top of European ones and extending to other European countries is huge pain in the ass (and costs fortune).
  - eloisant 2mo ago
    When was that coalition of nations? European countries were literally at each other throats until 1945, then we gradually built the European Union.
    - somenameforme 2mo ago
      I am referring to the past when there was less divisive leadership. I think the good things EU offers are generally a great idea - ease of transport, trade, common markets, common currency (* - not so certain on this one, but I'm tentatively positive), and so on. But when you do things like force countries to accept immigrants they may not want to accept, or demand cultural conformity on issues that are not well received, you're undermining your union. Historically religion is a great example here, as it was always the thing that divided people the most. And the Empires that thrived were those that allowed people to maintain and practice their own religion. In modern times socio-political values largely act in the same role, and also form the same divisions. The only difference is it just comes from personal ideology instead of scripture. Unfortunately we still seem largely stuck at the era of calling each other blasphemers and calling for crusades.
087532379864 2mo ago
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mcintyre1994 2mo ago
> but not UK or others wanting to leave. I don't think there are any others wanting to leave after Brexit! Politicians like Le Pen don't campaign to leave any more.
- ghusto 2mo ago
  It's become serious in German, Austria, and Czechia. The sentiment in France is not insignificant either. I hear a lot about how the UK has suffered after Brexit, but none of my experiences there support it. Not the people I talk to, not my own experiences from before vs. after. I think people _want_ it to be true, which I find ugly.
- rdm_blackhole 2mo ago
  The AFD is openly campaigning on it and they are currently the most popular parti in Germany. The French RN is not openly campaigning on leaving anymore since its pretty scary to the voters but the intention of Le Pen is to hold a referendum to ask the French people to recognize the supreme rule of French law above EU law which would act as a soft exit since that means that France would no longer be bound by directives and other regulations which it doesnt agree with. The other major parti France unbowed is even more direct and wants to set "fire" to some of the debt which would most likely trigger a Euro/Eu crisis and force either the ECB to bail out France or force France out of the Euro.
northernsausage 2mo ago
The mood is very much for re-joining in the UK.BREXIT was supposed to be the first domino that killed the EU but it very much didn't work because the average European likes a lot of what the EU has done for them. There are critiques sure but its not a dead system.
- ghusto 2mo ago
  Depends who you talk to. I have a mixed bag of UK friends, and it's about half-half. One thing I think myself is that there was an ugly _hope_ that the UK would suffer as a result. A hope which, as far as I can see, wasn't realised. Living in Europe, I saw a lot on the news about how the UK had shot itself in the foot and things were going badly, but when I visit friends, not so much.
  - owebmaster 2mo ago
    What got better in the UK after Brexit?
    - ghusto 2mo ago
      I made no claims that anything got better. Just that people are exaggerating its effects to support their politics.
  - squidbeak 2mo ago
    > I have a mixed bag of UK friends, and it's about half-half. Polls show the population regrets Brexit. [1] > One thing I think myself is that there was an ugly _hope_ that the UK would suffer as a result. A hope which, as far as I can see, wasn't realised. Living in Europe, I saw a lot on the news about how the UK had shot itself in the foot and things were going badly, but when I visit friends, not so much. The UK took a big hit to GDP as a result of Brexit [2], it drastically raised export costs [3] and ordinary people have faced steeper household bills ever since. [4] Meanwhile it led to increased immigration [5] with consequent social tensions. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-po... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/how-brexit-is-estimated-have-hit-uk-economy-2026-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/how-brexit-is-estimated-hav... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-exports-single-market-customs-union-b3041038.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-exp... [4] https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cp628.pdf https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cp628.pdf [5] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2025/772910/EPRS_BRI(2025)772910_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2025/7729...
ben_w 2mo ago
The UK's problem with Brexit was that the sovereignty issues under discussion were mostly lies (not merely false, but knowingly false, with incompatible stories told to different voters). The UK had opt-outs for a lot, wide-ranging veto powers, and for much of the rest the UK's trade gravity reality meant it had to follow the rules regardless of if it was in or out. So far as I'm concerned, if it had been about sovereignty, it's of course fine to say "we know leaving is expensive but we want out anyway". That's what money is for. The changes due to having left also means that rejoining is likely to be as disconnected from the reality of the situation as leaving itself was: the opt-outs are unlikely to be permitted, the vetos are already being reduced for practical reasons. > The EU is in bad need of reform, much like FIFA or IOC or the hopelessly broken 2 party system in the US, it likely never will. Very ugly nationalists may come and tear it apart. Indeed, though it remains to be seen if those nationalists are within or without. A threat from outside could be the trigger needed for reform, turning this free-trade union into something more like a nation. One on the inside could just end it.
ajmurmann 2mo ago
I think a big difference is that Iceland, like Norway, has agreements in place that give it most of the real benefits of EU membership. The UK had to go the other route, lose all the benefits and hope they can get the good parts back.
- Symbiote 2mo ago
  The UK chose that approach, not the EU.
regularization 2mo ago
> Loss of sovereignty' for some reason is perfectly fine for Iceland, Switzerland and Norway, but not UK or others wanting to leave. Kind of rich to say after the "Labour" PM of the UK said he would not allow the six occupied counties of north Ireland have a border poll, reneging on the Good Friday Agreement.
anal_reactor 2mo ago
The core purpose of EU was not to have a war with each other. I think on that front it's been astounding success - there have been zero wars recorded between EU countries. This might sound like low bar, but my grandma was literally genocided.
muyuu 2mo ago
I think it would be a grave mistake for them to join. They would lose all bargaining power right away and they'd be joining a very dysfunctional EU.
- pas 2mo ago
  They are already de facto inside. Hence the argument to have a vote at least. They are already paying the price for not being de jure members. (Currency exchange costs, rate hedging is also costly, and they don't benefit from EU unified foreign policy - the current Trump scare for Greenland could come for them too - hence the argument to join.)
  - muyuu 2mo ago
    their voting power would be essentially zero and the policy opt-ins very significant no doubt in my mind I'd vote no in their place
    - pas 2mo ago
      there are members with veto power (for things that require unanimity) https://michalovadek.github.io/eu-veto-tracker/ https://michalovadek.github.io/eu-veto-tracker/
      - muyuu 2mo ago
        which is obviously getting progressively reduced for the things that matter and more things moved to different forms of majority, and for good reasons too because the EU is already dysfunctional enough as is
nerdyadventurer 1mo ago
Cannot understand EU leadership. Urzula turnning of AC for others, but not for her.[1] Russian helicopters sitting duck when wild fire rages[2]. Afterall these are Spanish property even though Russian made. They do not want to find solution to this heat wave getting intense year by year other than war mongering. 35K excess deaths this year[3]. Next year it will be far worse. Trying harder to install backdoors[4] Keep postponing Ukrain joining EU, while they have suffered imensley. These things are getting ridiculous day by day. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-heatwave-hq-forced-shut-down-air-conditioning-europe/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-heatwave-hq-fo... [2] https://www.intellinews.com/sanctions-on-russia-backfire-leaving-spain-s-firefighting-helicopters-grounded-as-wildfires-rage-457800/ https://www.intellinews.com/sanctions-on-russia-backfire-lea... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/aug/25/at-least-35000-excess-deaths-europe-back-to-back-heatwaves https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/aug/25/at-least... [4] https://reclaimthenet.org/eu-protecteu-strategy-encryption-backdoor-law-enforcement https://reclaimthenet.org/eu-protecteu-strategy-encryption-b...

xyzelement 2mo ago

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andrepd 2mo ago
A maneauvor whereupon a foreign power allows as many people into a small enclave as already live there (literally 60k into a territory of 80k) cannot be called anything other than "invasion". When did Mexico conspire to help 60k people breach into Texas? Let me know and we can have that conversation, maybe I missed it. As a side-note it was the "dangerous communist leftist" Sanchez which swiftly took control of the situation and defended what was in effect an external EU border, while Melloni et al rubbed their hands and tried to score some cheap points while doing fuck all to help. Food for thought if you ask me...
- jayGlow 2mo ago
  there are several hundred thousand illegal crossings in Texas every year. the government might not be involved but there certainly are organizations involved in this.
- somenameforme 2mo ago
  The US situation is more nuanced than you're framing it as. Even in Mexico there's largely negative sentiment against illegal immigration, as they also suffer from it with the caravans composed primarily of large numbers of young unattached males from a mish mash of places in South America pass through Mexico. They don't tend to leave happiness in their wake. The majority of Mexicans (55%) want them forcibly deported with a slightly smaller majority (51%) of supporting using the National Guard to carry out and enforce such deportations. [1] Nobody knows exactly how many have come over, but there are estimated to be around 15 million illegal immigrants in the US, primarily via the southern border. For scale, the largest city in the US is NYC with about 8.5 million people. The 10th largest is Fort Worth, Texas with about 1 million. And that's after multiple waves of amnesty legalized millions more, which obviously did nothing but further incentivize more illegal immigration, exactly as in Spain. [1] - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/unauthorized-immigrants-face-public-backlash-in-mexico-survey-finds/2019/07/16/f7fc5d12-a75e-11e9-a3a6-ab670962db05_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/unauthoriz... [1] - https://archive.is/KruVX https://archive.is/KruVX
  - ExoticPearTree 2mo ago
    So the question becomes, since Mexico is really really huge, why doesn’t the Mexican governemt do anything about these caravans? Not to mention that Mexico is pretty narrow at its southern end.
    - somenameforme 2mo ago
      The border between Mexico and Guatemala is more than 500 miles long. Another issue is think about what's involved in stopping a thousand young males, plenty of them ready to fight. The reason these groups come in 'caravans' is because it makes it difficult to stop them without resorting to inhumane actions. And a thousand is fairly small relative to the size some of them reach. Another issue is money. Imagine you spend "only" $1000 per deported illegal immigrant, and in reality it's probably going to be substantially, if not magnitudes, more after all costs are accounted for. That'd already be tens of billions of dollars given that you're speaking of a problem on the scale of tens of millions.
dEnigma 2mo ago
Do you have an example of one of these texts that called the event in Ceuta an "invasion" but at the same time distanced itself from the American Right?
- slazaro 2mo ago
  Sounds like the Goomba fallacy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goomba_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goomba_fallacy
scrollaway 2mo ago
“So people sending requests to my web server is fine, but when I send ten thousand requests per second to other people’s web servers suddenly they call it a DDoS! Very unfair.”
pepperoni_pizza 2mo ago
What a coincidence that someone posting anti-EU stuff would use Russian expression

techpression 2mo ago

The never ending creeping need for more power tends to have these results. EU will either collapse or become a mega state that will later collapse, the problem is mostly that people view things in terms of elections, but downfall happens during much longer periods of time.

bluegatty 2mo ago
The most likely outcome is that the EU is more or less what it is now for the decades to come, and the lack of reform costs significantly in terms of progress, and that Europe misses out on leading key industrial elements and becomes less relevant to global affairs especially as a lot of so-called 'global south' countries become more successful. The dynamic of Europe sending all the talent to US is probably just going to continue as it is. Angela Merkel used to be my favourite politician because I thought she was so 'pragmatic' but I think in retrospect she was basically 'do nothing, kick the can down the road, don't rock the boat'. In some ways, the 'second most dangerous' kind of politician because it's so alluring to even reasonable people. The kinds of reforms that the EU needs ... which both re-instill a sense of national dynamism but at the same time provide even deeper integration other areas aka capital markets, defence ... almost nobody is talking about. 5 years into a conflict right on the borders, still can't get full sanctions, still buying Russian carbons, still can't get real access to that $100B Russian money, still totally dependent on the US, still have no proper munitions inventory, still don't have proper defence against ballistic missiles aka huge existential gaps in defence capabilities when the wolf is right at the door. The CIA had to visit Kremlin few days ago to warn against NATO attack is basically admission that Europe, 80 years after WW2 is not fully sovereign. It was daddy DJT that still to this day, is the one at the table, doing the talking. Not Von Der Leyen, not anyone from Europe ... but an American. The rise of 'ugly nationalism' may cause pro-EU people to rally and defend broken systems instead of reforming. There is a path through that storm that is a wining outcome however...
- WarmWash 2mo ago
  The EU is cooked unless they can figure out domestic industry. They currently have a US tech stack because they strangled Euro tech in the cradle, and now that things are rough with the US, they are looking to China to be their new, err, "trading partner". Anything other than realize they went way to far with "kill enterprise, embrace relaxation" mindset. Trust beyond anything else, when money gets to be tight, and the lavish promised benefits of the state start to dry up, the member states will pull swords on each other faster than anyone else.

ngruhn 2mo ago

> The EU has benefits obviously but it's been failing Europe in critical ways for about 20 yeas now I like those benefits: The shared currency, easy travel, they killed roaming fees! Also they're the only ones seriously taking on big tech. They made Apple ditch their dumb ass lightning cable.

andrepd 2mo ago
[flagged]
runarberg 2mo ago
[flagged]
- GlacierFox 2mo ago
  "Another problem is border fascism. Europe has open borders internally, but very closed borders externally. The external borders are being militarized and increasingly hostile towards immigrants and asylum seekers. European politicians are showing increasingly fascistic behavior towards the borders. It is bad, and inhumane, and it is braking Europe apart." What planet are you living on? Border fascism? What? 70,000 'migrants' crossed into Cueta a short while back and the place is in turmoil now. "European politicians are showing increasingly fascistic behavior towards the borders" Where do people like you come from? I'm always interested in this utterly surreal take on enforcing the border of your own country, like that's now fascist. What's going on here? There's not many positions that leave me utterly perplexed. I'm sincerely asking, how you hold your position on this? What have you experienced in life to end up with these opinions? What benefit is flooding Europe with literally anyone from all the backward cultured shit holes from around the world?
  - runarberg 2mo ago
    What I have experienced is being in an international relationship and having to have to go through the (legal) immigration process twice. First by my married spouse immigrating to Iceland, and then again by me, and Icelandic citizen moving to the USA. What I have heard are people being deported from Europe, immigrants unable to move to the place they want to seek better life, asylum seekers sent back to the dangerous situations they were fleeing, or worse to third countries they have no relations with, exile being used as punishment against some criminals based on their country of origin, etc. etc. Europe is increasingly becoming a surveillance hellhole, personal rights are being stripped away, privacy is being abolished under the guise of “protecting our borders”. This is border fascism, and Europe is better off without it. Immigrants, no matter how many millions, can never cause the same harm to a fellow working European as a politician who stripes away your human rights.

azan_ 2mo ago

If EU wants to be superpower, we need more European integration and less of national sovereignty. Unfortunately it will never happen and we are doomed to become more and more marginalised.

somenameforme 2mo ago
When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. The efforts to centralize power seem to be exactly what's causing the divisions. You have highly partisan leaders trying to dictate policy to countries that lean in very different directions. That's not going to lead to good things. Stable empires have always been those that offered the greatest degrees of sovereignty to those under their rule, and I think that this should be somewhat self evident. When you try to enforce conformity across an empire, you're going to face resistance and even the mightiest of empires cannot sustain itself without a solid internal foundation.
- azan_ 2mo ago
  > When the EU was more a coalition of independent nations, it had vastly more influence and power in the world. Good luck showing causality here. Single EU nations have no way of competing with EU or China until we have real single market. In theory we have single market, but in practice every country introduces regulations on top of European ones and extending to other European countries is huge pain in the ass (and costs fortune).
- eloisant 2mo ago
  When was that coalition of nations? European countries were literally at each other throats until 1945, then we gradually built the European Union.
  - somenameforme 2mo ago
    I am referring to the past when there was less divisive leadership. I think the good things EU offers are generally a great idea - ease of transport, trade, common markets, common currency (* - not so certain on this one, but I'm tentatively positive), and so on. But when you do things like force countries to accept immigrants they may not want to accept, or demand cultural conformity on issues that are not well received, you're undermining your union. Historically religion is a great example here, as it was always the thing that divided people the most. And the Empires that thrived were those that allowed people to maintain and practice their own religion. In modern times socio-political values largely act in the same role, and also form the same divisions. The only difference is it just comes from personal ideology instead of scripture. Unfortunately we still seem largely stuck at the era of calling each other blasphemers and calling for crusades.

087532379864 2mo ago

[flagged]

mcintyre1994 2mo ago

> but not UK or others wanting to leave. I don't think there are any others wanting to leave after Brexit! Politicians like Le Pen don't campaign to leave any more.

ghusto 2mo ago
It's become serious in German, Austria, and Czechia. The sentiment in France is not insignificant either. I hear a lot about how the UK has suffered after Brexit, but none of my experiences there support it. Not the people I talk to, not my own experiences from before vs. after. I think people _want_ it to be true, which I find ugly.
rdm_blackhole 2mo ago
The AFD is openly campaigning on it and they are currently the most popular parti in Germany. The French RN is not openly campaigning on leaving anymore since its pretty scary to the voters but the intention of Le Pen is to hold a referendum to ask the French people to recognize the supreme rule of French law above EU law which would act as a soft exit since that means that France would no longer be bound by directives and other regulations which it doesnt agree with. The other major parti France unbowed is even more direct and wants to set "fire" to some of the debt which would most likely trigger a Euro/Eu crisis and force either the ECB to bail out France or force France out of the Euro.

northernsausage 2mo ago

The mood is very much for re-joining in the UK.BREXIT was supposed to be the first domino that killed the EU but it very much didn't work because the average European likes a lot of what the EU has done for them. There are critiques sure but its not a dead system.

ghusto 2mo ago
Depends who you talk to. I have a mixed bag of UK friends, and it's about half-half. One thing I think myself is that there was an ugly _hope_ that the UK would suffer as a result. A hope which, as far as I can see, wasn't realised. Living in Europe, I saw a lot on the news about how the UK had shot itself in the foot and things were going badly, but when I visit friends, not so much.
- owebmaster 2mo ago
  What got better in the UK after Brexit?
  - ghusto 2mo ago
    I made no claims that anything got better. Just that people are exaggerating its effects to support their politics.
- squidbeak 2mo ago
  > I have a mixed bag of UK friends, and it's about half-half. Polls show the population regrets Brexit. [1] > One thing I think myself is that there was an ugly _hope_ that the UK would suffer as a result. A hope which, as far as I can see, wasn't realised. Living in Europe, I saw a lot on the news about how the UK had shot itself in the foot and things were going badly, but when I visit friends, not so much. The UK took a big hit to GDP as a result of Brexit [2], it drastically raised export costs [3] and ordinary people have faced steeper household bills ever since. [4] Meanwhile it led to increased immigration [5] with consequent social tensions. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-poll/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/987347/brexit-opinion-po... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/how-brexit-is-estimated-have-hit-uk-economy-2026-06-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/how-brexit-is-estimated-hav... [3] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-exports-single-market-customs-union-b3041038.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-exp... [4] https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cp628.pdf https://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/cp628.pdf [5] https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2025/772910/EPRS_BRI(2025)772910_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2025/7729...

ben_w 2mo ago

The UK's problem with Brexit was that the sovereignty issues under discussion were mostly lies (not merely false, but knowingly false, with incompatible stories told to different voters). The UK had opt-outs for a lot, wide-ranging veto powers, and for much of the rest the UK's trade gravity reality meant it had to follow the rules regardless of if it was in or out. So far as I'm concerned, if it had been about sovereignty, it's of course fine to say "we know leaving is expensive but we want out anyway". That's what money is for. The changes due to having left also means that rejoining is likely to be as disconnected from the reality of the situation as leaving itself was: the opt-outs are unlikely to be permitted, the vetos are already being reduced for practical reasons. > The EU is in bad need of reform, much like FIFA or IOC or the hopelessly broken 2 party system in the US, it likely never will. Very ugly nationalists may come and tear it apart. Indeed, though it remains to be seen if those nationalists are within or without. A threat from outside could be the trigger needed for reform, turning this free-trade union into something more like a nation. One on the inside could just end it.

ajmurmann 2mo ago

I think a big difference is that Iceland, like Norway, has agreements in place that give it most of the real benefits of EU membership. The UK had to go the other route, lose all the benefits and hope they can get the good parts back.

Symbiote 2mo ago
The UK chose that approach, not the EU.

regularization 2mo ago

> Loss of sovereignty' for some reason is perfectly fine for Iceland, Switzerland and Norway, but not UK or others wanting to leave. Kind of rich to say after the "Labour" PM of the UK said he would not allow the six occupied counties of north Ireland have a border poll, reneging on the Good Friday Agreement.

anal_reactor 2mo ago

The core purpose of EU was not to have a war with each other. I think on that front it's been astounding success - there have been zero wars recorded between EU countries. This might sound like low bar, but my grandma was literally genocided.

muyuu 2mo ago

I think it would be a grave mistake for them to join. They would lose all bargaining power right away and they'd be joining a very dysfunctional EU.

pas 2mo ago
They are already de facto inside. Hence the argument to have a vote at least. They are already paying the price for not being de jure members. (Currency exchange costs, rate hedging is also costly, and they don't benefit from EU unified foreign policy - the current Trump scare for Greenland could come for them too - hence the argument to join.)
- muyuu 2mo ago
  their voting power would be essentially zero and the policy opt-ins very significant no doubt in my mind I'd vote no in their place
  - pas 2mo ago
    there are members with veto power (for things that require unanimity) https://michalovadek.github.io/eu-veto-tracker/ https://michalovadek.github.io/eu-veto-tracker/
    - muyuu 2mo ago
      which is obviously getting progressively reduced for the things that matter and more things moved to different forms of majority, and for good reasons too because the EU is already dysfunctional enough as is

nerdyadventurer 1mo ago

Cannot understand EU leadership. Urzula turnning of AC for others, but not for her.[1] Russian helicopters sitting duck when wild fire rages[2]. Afterall these are Spanish property even though Russian made. They do not want to find solution to this heat wave getting intense year by year other than war mongering. 35K excess deaths this year[3]. Next year it will be far worse. Trying harder to install backdoors[4] Keep postponing Ukrain joining EU, while they have suffered imensley. These things are getting ridiculous day by day. [1] https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-heatwave-hq-forced-shut-down-air-conditioning-europe/ https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-commission-heatwave-hq-fo... [2] https://www.intellinews.com/sanctions-on-russia-backfire-leaving-spain-s-firefighting-helicopters-grounded-as-wildfires-rage-457800/ https://www.intellinews.com/sanctions-on-russia-backfire-lea... [3] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/aug/25/at-least-35000-excess-deaths-europe-back-to-back-heatwaves https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/aug/25/at-least... [4] https://reclaimthenet.org/eu-protecteu-strategy-encryption-backdoor-law-enforcement https://reclaimthenet.org/eu-protecteu-strategy-encryption-b...