6 ms·

The argument is that both should be supported, which seems like a valid wish. There's really no reason to either-or this. Just have both work.

• manlymuppet 1mo ago
  Well the two--building for power users vs for a general audience--often work against each other. And trying to satisfy every audience at once is a good way to satisfy none. You don't want your app to be a Jack of all trades; focus is really valuable.
  • oneeyedpigeon 1mo ago
    Do you have an example of how supporting a keyboard shortcut for every action could be bad for a general audience?
    • Telaneo 1mo ago
      Devil's advocate: showing the relevant keyboard shortcuts in the UI can be overwhelming (or at least one of many parts that all together become overwhelming) to new users, while not having them shown at all makes them undiscoverable. I think this is a bad reason. Even MS Office has made this work. But I've seen people act on this type of argument. If nothing else, it should be possible to have a settings menu where you can define your own. Even if no shortcuts are set by default and they aren't shown anywhere else in the UI, it will still be possible for a power user to make the best use of the program.
      • marcosdumay 1mo ago
        > showing the relevant keyboard shortcuts in the UI can be overwhelming Every application did it for decades after the first Xerox guidelines up until Microsoft and Apple decided to retire the concept of usability some time around 2010.
        • Telaneo 1mo ago
          something something smartphones
        • wolvoleo 1mo ago
          At least Apple still shows them when you hold option. At least they did when I still used a Mac.
      • toast0 1mo ago
        > showing the relevant keyboard shortcuts in the UI can be overwhelming Underlining the accelerator key is subtle and shouldn't be overwelming. Keyboard navigation unaware users probably won't even notice.
        • Telaneo 1mo ago
          This works poorly if you intend to localise your application. Great if you don't though.
          • wtallis 1mo ago
            It sounds like your complaint might be that it works poorly if you half-ass the localization process and assume that literal translation of strings is most or all of what localization means.
            • Telaneo 1mo ago
              I'm not sure how you read that from my comment. To be fair to your point though, that's what most localisation of programs are these days.
          • mixmastamyk 1mo ago
            Windows did both successfully.
            • Telaneo 1mo ago
              I can't remember an example that didn't also include the shortcut written in full, but I might just be drawing a blank here. Care to give an example?
              • mixmastamyk 1mo ago
                Wasn't easy to find! https://www.augenbit.de/wiki/images/5/57/Arbeitsplatz.png https://www.augenbit.de/wiki/images/5/57/Arbeitsplatz.png
      • prmoustache 1mo ago
        > Devil's advocate: showing the relevant keyboard shortcuts in the UI can be overwhelming That is not a requirement, having access to menus, a master help shortcut ir fuzzy search actions shorcut are other options.
  • mixmastamyk 1mo ago
    Another person here is arguing for accessibility, which may have been overlooked.
• magicalhippo 1mo ago
  Which, if you made say a regular Win32 application, was guaranteed. These newfangled frameworks dropped the ball, if anything.
  • kerblang 1mo ago
    Not guaranteed but easy, because Windows has mnemonics, where you can associate arbitrarily nested menus with actions, and each menu can have its own mnemonic key, so that you press ALT, then, say, "k", then, maybe "m" and so on, following along with the menus as they drop down. This way it becomes easy to memorize key sequences; start by navigating with arrow keys, then eventually speed up as you memorize each menu item's mnemonic key, and if you ever forget, just look at the menu. It was the keyboard-friendliest idea ever, without requiring any sort of terminal. I'd even say friendlier than MacOS (heresy!!) or, yes, VIM (burn the witch!!!)
    • magicalhippo 1mo ago
      Even if you didn't have mnemonics, you could use tab, arrow keys and alt if needed, to navigate, and space to "click" buttons and such. So even if the developer forgot to configure mnemonics, which was as easy as prefixing a letter with ampersand, you could navigate by keyboard. Sometimes tedious but beats not being able.
    • the_lucifer 1mo ago
      > Not guaranteed but easy, because Windows has mnemonics, where you can associate arbitrarily nested menus with actions, and each menu can have its own mnemonic key, so that you press ALT, then, say, "k", then, maybe "m" and so on, following along with the menus as they drop down. > I'd even say friendlier than MacOS (heresy!!) Honestly, I disagree. If you've used macOS for a length of time, you might be aware of the universal menu search system using (cmd+? i.e. cmd+shift+/). Hit that, type the menu item name, and simply hit return to activate it. Doesn't get simpler than that. The alt+ system always feels very janky to me on Windows because on many apps, hitting Alt relayouts the entire app sometimes to show the menu bar on top.