4 ms·

As a system macOS definitely has some holes in keyboard navigation, as well as a couple corners which are KB-navigable but the way to focus them is not immediat

As a system macOS definitely has some holes in keyboard navigation, as well as a couple corners which are KB-navigable but the way to focus them is not immediately obvious. On the app level, keyboard navigability depends on the developer. If they take the time to dot their I's and cross their T's it's between decent and great, but if they don't care it'll be bad.

dpark 2mo ago
MacOS has intentional holes in keyboard support. You have to go into settings and turn on a config for keyboard navigation to reach all elements. Apple intends for most users to navigate with a mouse. It’s in the accessibility settings. https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/mac https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/...
- burnte 2mo ago
  I cannot think of a single reason these would be disabled by default other than Apple stubbornness.
  - ChickeNES 2mo ago
    This is the company that popularized the mouse and GUIs, why are you shocked?
    - burnte 2mo ago
      Because it's stupid. Why would accessibility features enabled by default on Windows and Linux be disabled by default in MacOS? There is literally zero advantage to disabling it, and it makes life harder on users. Same thing with tap to click. Once everyone else enabled tap to click Apple disabled it. They just HAVE to be different, even if it's bad for users, and that stubbornness is frustrating.
      - dpark 2mo ago
        If you expect your users to mostly work with both mouse and keyboard, it can make sense. Dropping stuff from the tabbing order means that the stuff left is is quicker to tab through. I find it mostly annoying. Tap to click, though, that’s infuriating. I don’t know how people can stand it. I know people who insist they like it and then I see them accidentally “click” regularly and get annoyed by it.
        burnte 2mo ago
        No, keeping it disabled makes zero sense. There's no reason now to force people to enable it. Most people don't even know you can do it in windows so it's not like there's a huge problem for them. No reason not to leave it on here.
      - danaris 2mo ago
        To a large extent, I believe it's a holdover from the earliest days of the Mac, when the mouse was brand-new, and many developers had to essentially be forced to even support it, let alone treat it as a first-class interface device. I agree that it would be nice if Apple would have more keyboard navigation available by default now than they did then, but given that it is readily available for those who want it, I don't really see it as a huge issue.
  - PepegaRoach 2mo ago
    [dead]
cyberax 2mo ago
"Some holes"? That's an understatement. There's no option to bring up a context menu with the keyboard. And there are no keyboard accelerators _AT_ _ALL_. Windows will underline the shortcut characters when you hold "alt".
- cosmic_cheese 2mo ago
  > There's no option to bring up a context menu with the keyboard. That used to be the case but has changed. Since at least macOS 15 the context menu key on typical keyboards is recognized and functions, and on other keyboards it can be opened with Ctrl+Return.
  - Muskwalker 2mo ago
    > Since at least macOS 15 the context menu key on typical keyboards is recognized and functions Apple's adding it to its own keyboards as well, at least on the third-generation Magic Keyboard with number pad (between F13 and forward delete).
- kccqzy 2mo ago
  The philosophy was that anything visible in a context menu should also be in the app-wide menu bar. Instead of bring up a context menu and click Copy, you would find the Copy menu item in the menu bar. Therefore such menu items can be assigned any keyboard shortcut by the user. I quote from Apple https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/context-menus https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...: > Always make context menu items available in the main interface, too. […] In macOS, an app’s menu bar menus list all the app’s commands, including those in various context menus. Therefore one can rightly conclude that there is no need for a key to bring up a context menu.
  - Tallain 2mo ago
    In this case it's not a context menu, it's just a menu. User experience is degraded, see GP's case. There is an expectation and a common paradigm which is intentionally ignored because the OS developers thought they knew better than the users. This reminds me of frequent conversations with other developers when presented with a bug report. "That's not a bug, it's working as intended." The intention is wrong, then -- the bug is in the design, not the code, but it's still a bug.

dpark 2mo ago

MacOS has intentional holes in keyboard support. You have to go into settings and turn on a config for keyboard navigation to reach all elements. Apple intends for most users to navigate with a mouse. It’s in the accessibility settings. https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/mac https://support.apple.com/en-za/guide/mac-help/mchlc06d1059/...

burnte 2mo ago
I cannot think of a single reason these would be disabled by default other than Apple stubbornness.
- ChickeNES 2mo ago
  This is the company that popularized the mouse and GUIs, why are you shocked?
  - burnte 2mo ago
    Because it's stupid. Why would accessibility features enabled by default on Windows and Linux be disabled by default in MacOS? There is literally zero advantage to disabling it, and it makes life harder on users. Same thing with tap to click. Once everyone else enabled tap to click Apple disabled it. They just HAVE to be different, even if it's bad for users, and that stubbornness is frustrating.
    - dpark 2mo ago
      If you expect your users to mostly work with both mouse and keyboard, it can make sense. Dropping stuff from the tabbing order means that the stuff left is is quicker to tab through. I find it mostly annoying. Tap to click, though, that’s infuriating. I don’t know how people can stand it. I know people who insist they like it and then I see them accidentally “click” regularly and get annoyed by it.
      - burnte 2mo ago
        No, keeping it disabled makes zero sense. There's no reason now to force people to enable it. Most people don't even know you can do it in windows so it's not like there's a huge problem for them. No reason not to leave it on here.
    - danaris 2mo ago
      To a large extent, I believe it's a holdover from the earliest days of the Mac, when the mouse was brand-new, and many developers had to essentially be forced to even support it, let alone treat it as a first-class interface device. I agree that it would be nice if Apple would have more keyboard navigation available by default now than they did then, but given that it is readily available for those who want it, I don't really see it as a huge issue.
- PepegaRoach 2mo ago
  [dead]

cyberax 2mo ago

"Some holes"? That's an understatement. There's no option to bring up a context menu with the keyboard. And there are no keyboard accelerators _AT_ _ALL_. Windows will underline the shortcut characters when you hold "alt".

cosmic_cheese 2mo ago
> There's no option to bring up a context menu with the keyboard. That used to be the case but has changed. Since at least macOS 15 the context menu key on typical keyboards is recognized and functions, and on other keyboards it can be opened with Ctrl+Return.
- Muskwalker 2mo ago
  > Since at least macOS 15 the context menu key on typical keyboards is recognized and functions Apple's adding it to its own keyboards as well, at least on the third-generation Magic Keyboard with number pad (between F13 and forward delete).
kccqzy 2mo ago
The philosophy was that anything visible in a context menu should also be in the app-wide menu bar. Instead of bring up a context menu and click Copy, you would find the Copy menu item in the menu bar. Therefore such menu items can be assigned any keyboard shortcut by the user. I quote from Apple https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/context-menus https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guideline...: > Always make context menu items available in the main interface, too. […] In macOS, an app’s menu bar menus list all the app’s commands, including those in various context menus. Therefore one can rightly conclude that there is no need for a key to bring up a context menu.
- Tallain 2mo ago
  In this case it's not a context menu, it's just a menu. User experience is degraded, see GP's case. There is an expectation and a common paradigm which is intentionally ignored because the OS developers thought they knew better than the users. This reminds me of frequent conversations with other developers when presented with a bug report. "That's not a bug, it's working as intended." The intention is wrong, then -- the bug is in the design, not the code, but it's still a bug.