4 ms·

Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled. > Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system o

by gwbas1c 1mo ago

Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled. > Device manufacturers and vendors should not impose an operating system or software on consumers This is not a reasonable expectation. Hardware needs software to work, and software runs on an operating system. You can't expect every vendor in the work of every kind of product you can buy to offer you a slightly different version than you would like to buy.

redeeman 1mo ago
i think its reasonable that people who sell computer monitors also demand you purchase a computer or other output device from them. Why do you feel differently here? after all, a computer monitor needs a computer or other output device to work, no?
- didjdjfkgk 1mo ago
  [dead]
- n2d4 1mo ago
  Sure and whoever sells the monitor can sell it in a bundle like that, people will just stop buying their monitor and buy the competition's instead You can do that with software, too. It just turns out that there's more people who want to bundle their software
- 7bit 1mo ago
  You are comparing apples and oranges.
- dooglius 1mo ago
  In fact, this is what happens in the case of laptop displays
  - redeeman 1mo ago
    except when you for example buy a spare part, which I know some people hate having the ability to do, but some of us actually appreciate
deadbunny 1mo ago
this has only been somewhat possoble for laptops within the last decade even then you're limited to a narrower selection of models.
- jijijijij 1mo ago
  Also these models are usually expensive. Cheap/low-end models don't have this option ever. Depending on the financial situation, the "just buy the alternative" may not be possible. Some people here need to touch grass, this campaign is probably not particularly concerned with their configured 2k+ dev machines.
hootz 1mo ago
Yeah, one of the reasons why I chose my current Acer laptop was that it didn't come with Windows pre-installed. That made it cheaper and I didn't have to give money to Microsoft.
supernikio2 1mo ago
The key word here is "impose". I can imagine a world where at time of purchase you would select which OS (if any) you would want pre-installed on the machine. Even a checkbox for Yes/No Windows would be an improvement.
- alightsoul 1mo ago
  [dead]
- vel0city 1mo ago
  And then people go to Best Buy and see there's a model on the shelf that looks to be the exact same but its $60 cheaper, so they buy that and then realize they have no idea what to do with it so I guess this brand of laptop just sucks, Macs don't have that problem I guess I'll just buy those instead.
  - pineaux 1mo ago
    Apple should also be forced to allow the user freedom to choose at least one other OS. But maybe thats too much to ask. I think it's not too much too ask, but I am probably an outlier. Dont start about Asahi please. I know it exists.
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
    - tredre3 1mo ago
      Okay we force Apple to give the consumer freedom to choose at least one other OS. But none other exists, so what should Apple do? Create a second operating system themselves to give the illusion of choice? Be forced to bankroll an independent team such as Asahi (which you don't seem to consider valid)? It seems to me that you are asking too much.
      - flerchin 1mo ago
        What's wrong with Asahi linux?
BeetleB 1mo ago
> This is not a reasonable expectation. I may be of a different age, but in my time it was common to buy computers without any OS pre-installed. It was on you to install one (from CD, floppy, whatever). Of course, vendors selling PCs often also sold OS's...
- flyingshelf 1mo ago
  Sorry but this isn't the 70s. Even businesses expect devices to somewhat work out of the box so it's completely unreasonable to everyone except people who buy things like Raspberry PI, which are a tiny minority.
  - BeetleB 1mo ago
    I'm talking about the 90's. I'm sure they did sell computers with Windows pre-installed in the 90's. But almost every place also sold computers without any OS. It was not at all unusual. The computing world wasn't just in the US, you know. Microsoft didn't have a deal with all PC manufacturers in the world.
- tredre3 1mo ago
  Expectations change over time. But I also believe your recollection is erroneous or must differ by region because I was there as early as the 80s and computers sold without an operating system weren't common. If you were buying a PC clone in the 90s you could buy it without the Windows license, of course, but the default was to include it. Even before PCs, computers typically shipped with BASIC, which was their operating system of sort. Macs, Amigas, they all shipped with an OS as well.
  - BeetleB 1mo ago
    > Even before PCs, computers typically shipped with BASIC, which was their operating system of sort. Sure. In the 80's, all the IBM PC compatibles I dealt with shipped with BASIC in their ROM. But I don't think they charged a licensing fee for it.
ozozozd 1mo ago
Oh I am interested in buying a piece of hardware, they thought it would be convenient for customers to pre-install software I don’t want, and make money with it (the real convenience), and if I am to demand that I pay/ask only for the hardware, my expectation is unreasonable. How convenient!
stronglikedan 1mo ago
> Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled. For the vase majority of users, it only makes sense to buy hardware with a preinstalled OS.
dfxm12 1mo ago
I hear what you're saying, but there are issues when you continue the line of thought one step. Imposing Windows implies requiring agreements to unknown eula's at the time of purchase. Consider Windows is there in the first place because of anticompetitive practices. Stuff like this is unreasonable too. I think moreso. I guess it comes down to if you think consumers or big tech is more deserving of protection.
heisenbit 1mo ago
Is this complexity intrinsic, accidental or even intentional? Bundling is a powerful move to defend monopolies.
account42 1mo ago
Hardware needs software to work but hardware should not need specific software to work but rather any software that implements the other side of a set of standards.

by gwbas1c 1mo ago

redeeman 1mo ago

i think its reasonable that people who sell computer monitors also demand you purchase a computer or other output device from them. Why do you feel differently here? after all, a computer monitor needs a computer or other output device to work, no?

didjdjfkgk 1mo ago
[dead]
n2d4 1mo ago
Sure and whoever sells the monitor can sell it in a bundle like that, people will just stop buying their monitor and buy the competition's instead You can do that with software, too. It just turns out that there's more people who want to bundle their software
7bit 1mo ago
You are comparing apples and oranges.
dooglius 1mo ago
In fact, this is what happens in the case of laptop displays
- redeeman 1mo ago
  except when you for example buy a spare part, which I know some people hate having the ability to do, but some of us actually appreciate

deadbunny 1mo ago

this has only been somewhat possoble for laptops within the last decade even then you're limited to a narrower selection of models.

jijijijij 1mo ago
Also these models are usually expensive. Cheap/low-end models don't have this option ever. Depending on the financial situation, the "just buy the alternative" may not be possible. Some people here need to touch grass, this campaign is probably not particularly concerned with their configured 2k+ dev machines.

hootz 1mo ago

Yeah, one of the reasons why I chose my current Acer laptop was that it didn't come with Windows pre-installed. That made it cheaper and I didn't have to give money to Microsoft.

supernikio2 1mo ago

The key word here is "impose". I can imagine a world where at time of purchase you would select which OS (if any) you would want pre-installed on the machine. Even a checkbox for Yes/No Windows would be an improvement.

alightsoul 1mo ago
[dead]
vel0city 1mo ago
And then people go to Best Buy and see there's a model on the shelf that looks to be the exact same but its $60 cheaper, so they buy that and then realize they have no idea what to do with it so I guess this brand of laptop just sucks, Macs don't have that problem I guess I'll just buy those instead.
- pineaux 1mo ago
  Apple should also be forced to allow the user freedom to choose at least one other OS. But maybe thats too much to ask. I think it's not too much too ask, but I am probably an outlier. Dont start about Asahi please. I know it exists.
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
  - tredre3 1mo ago
    Okay we force Apple to give the consumer freedom to choose at least one other OS. But none other exists, so what should Apple do? Create a second operating system themselves to give the illusion of choice? Be forced to bankroll an independent team such as Asahi (which you don't seem to consider valid)? It seems to me that you are asking too much.
    - flerchin 1mo ago
      What's wrong with Asahi linux?

BeetleB 1mo ago

> This is not a reasonable expectation. I may be of a different age, but in my time it was common to buy computers without any OS pre-installed. It was on you to install one (from CD, floppy, whatever). Of course, vendors selling PCs often also sold OS's...

flyingshelf 1mo ago
Sorry but this isn't the 70s. Even businesses expect devices to somewhat work out of the box so it's completely unreasonable to everyone except people who buy things like Raspberry PI, which are a tiny minority.
- BeetleB 1mo ago
  I'm talking about the 90's. I'm sure they did sell computers with Windows pre-installed in the 90's. But almost every place also sold computers without any OS. It was not at all unusual. The computing world wasn't just in the US, you know. Microsoft didn't have a deal with all PC manufacturers in the world.
tredre3 1mo ago
Expectations change over time. But I also believe your recollection is erroneous or must differ by region because I was there as early as the 80s and computers sold without an operating system weren't common. If you were buying a PC clone in the 90s you could buy it without the Windows license, of course, but the default was to include it. Even before PCs, computers typically shipped with BASIC, which was their operating system of sort. Macs, Amigas, they all shipped with an OS as well.
- BeetleB 1mo ago
  > Even before PCs, computers typically shipped with BASIC, which was their operating system of sort. Sure. In the 80's, all the IBM PC compatibles I dealt with shipped with BASIC in their ROM. But I don't think they charged a licensing fee for it.

ozozozd 1mo ago

Oh I am interested in buying a piece of hardware, they thought it would be convenient for customers to pre-install software I don’t want, and make money with it (the real convenience), and if I am to demand that I pay/ask only for the hardware, my expectation is unreasonable. How convenient!

stronglikedan 1mo ago

> Seems like it makes a lot more sense to buy a computer without Windows preinstalled. For the vase majority of users, it only makes sense to buy hardware with a preinstalled OS.

dfxm12 1mo ago

I hear what you're saying, but there are issues when you continue the line of thought one step. Imposing Windows implies requiring agreements to unknown eula's at the time of purchase. Consider Windows is there in the first place because of anticompetitive practices. Stuff like this is unreasonable too. I think moreso. I guess it comes down to if you think consumers or big tech is more deserving of protection.

heisenbit 1mo ago

Is this complexity intrinsic, accidental or even intentional? Bundling is a powerful move to defend monopolies.

account42 1mo ago

Hardware needs software to work but hardware should not need specific software to work but rather any software that implements the other side of a set of standards.