4 ms·

Most generators not connected to the grid are for emergency backup purposes. Granted, this carve out is now clearly being abused, but the original intent is qui

by bob1029 2mo ago

Most generators not connected to the grid are for emergency backup purposes. Granted, this carve out is now clearly being abused, but the original intent is quite rational. If we enforced strict regulations on all generators without any exceptions at all, your sewage lift station might not have a backup source anymore.

jaapz 2mo ago
If that is the original intent, why did that not get added into the law? Explicitly specififying that the exception only applies to emergency backup situations would have solved this, right?
- Muromec 2mo ago
  Clearly codifying intent in a string of bytes is hard, especially if an alternative makes a nice sound folding into a pocket.
- bpodgursky 2mo ago
  Because congress passed the law in 1970 and did not expect we'd lose the ability to pass legislation that fixes minor problems with the original laws. Since congress can't do that anymore, to maintain a functional civilization we have to turn minor loopholes in the original law into load-bearing aspects of an industrial society.
- bob1029 2mo ago
  "Emergency" is a spectrum. Would you be OK with one specific generation station temporarily emitting 3x more than legal limit (e.g., from the hours of 2pm to 6pm) if the alternative is a 5% increase in absolute probability of a multi-day regional blackout? What about a 10% increase? Where is your red line?
  - m463 2mo ago
    Isn't the US in a perpetual state of emergency? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
- Ekaros 2mo ago
  My reasonable guess is that they did not want to make those case that need off-grid generation too hard to build. And never considered that anyone would build any actually significant amount of off-grid capacity. At certain threshold grid just makes economic sense. So rational actors would never do that. Sadly AI companies are entirely irrational actors so this really was rather hard to foresee...
  - Sanzig 2mo ago
    Yep. The loophole is not hard to close, they could restrict the exemption to standby generators which only operate (1) in the event of a grid outage, and (2) for testing purposes. For a genuine off-grid use case (eg: very rural locations), they could add a new exemption which allows installations up to X kW capacity per site where local grid connections do not exist. Set X large enough that it won't negatively impact applications like cabins or nature retreats, but small enough that it's not useful to a large operator like a datacentre. Of course, this all requires a functional Congress... so good luck.
- Marazan 2mo ago
  The law is not a set of hard coded rules. It is an agreement between humans, tied up in unspoken conventions. The principle one being, don't be a dick. The law always breaks down when it is treated as a hard and fast set of instructions that can be "hacked" by slavish adherence to precise language.
testing22321 2mo ago
> If we enforced strict regulations on all generators without any exceptions at all, your sewage lift station might not have a backup source anymore. No need for the FUD. It would just mean the backup generator connected to the sewage lift station must meet emissions regulations, like in every developed country on earth. If you’re trying to say there are simply some generators that can’t meet emissions standards, I’m going to say you just aren’t trying.
- bryanlarsen 2mo ago
  Yes, that's what we're saying. A small generator cannot meet the emissions standards of a large generator.
  - bob1029 2mo ago
    Some of the most effective emissions control equipment scales down very poorly. The bigger you can make the plant, the more viable these technologies become. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_scrubber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_scrubber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_emissions_monitoring_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_emissions_monitorin... (et. al.)
  - testing22321 2mo ago
    You’re just not trying. There’s no reason at all that “generator” can’t be batteries rated for x hours, or a small generator that IS emissions certified. I.e. https://www.reddit.com/r/Generator/comments/1hydy6j/recommendations_for_carb_certified_portable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Generator/comments/1hydy6j/recommen...
    - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
      that's a very different standard.
jandrewrogers 2mo ago
It isn't just emergency generators. Many non-emergency generators are used because there is no grid to connect to and/or the power requirements are not anticipated to be permanent. The cost of a grid connection can greatly exceed anything justified by the use case. There are entire industries that live off of large portable generators for non-emergency purposes because it is the only way to get power where you need it.
_DeadFred_ 2mo ago
And now we will have to add more bureaucracy and regulations to the process because of the tech bro's abuses of reasonable carveouts. More bureaucracy that future tech bros/right wingers will complain about existing even though they chose to force the matter to the point of regulation.

by bob1029 2mo ago

jaapz 2mo ago

If that is the original intent, why did that not get added into the law? Explicitly specififying that the exception only applies to emergency backup situations would have solved this, right?

Muromec 2mo ago
Clearly codifying intent in a string of bytes is hard, especially if an alternative makes a nice sound folding into a pocket.
bpodgursky 2mo ago
Because congress passed the law in 1970 and did not expect we'd lose the ability to pass legislation that fixes minor problems with the original laws. Since congress can't do that anymore, to maintain a functional civilization we have to turn minor loopholes in the original law into load-bearing aspects of an industrial society.
bob1029 2mo ago
"Emergency" is a spectrum. Would you be OK with one specific generation station temporarily emitting 3x more than legal limit (e.g., from the hours of 2pm to 6pm) if the alternative is a 5% increase in absolute probability of a multi-day regional blackout? What about a 10% increase? Where is your red line?
- m463 2mo ago
  Isn't the US in a perpetual state of emergency? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
Ekaros 2mo ago
My reasonable guess is that they did not want to make those case that need off-grid generation too hard to build. And never considered that anyone would build any actually significant amount of off-grid capacity. At certain threshold grid just makes economic sense. So rational actors would never do that. Sadly AI companies are entirely irrational actors so this really was rather hard to foresee...
- Sanzig 2mo ago
  Yep. The loophole is not hard to close, they could restrict the exemption to standby generators which only operate (1) in the event of a grid outage, and (2) for testing purposes. For a genuine off-grid use case (eg: very rural locations), they could add a new exemption which allows installations up to X kW capacity per site where local grid connections do not exist. Set X large enough that it won't negatively impact applications like cabins or nature retreats, but small enough that it's not useful to a large operator like a datacentre. Of course, this all requires a functional Congress... so good luck.
Marazan 2mo ago
The law is not a set of hard coded rules. It is an agreement between humans, tied up in unspoken conventions. The principle one being, don't be a dick. The law always breaks down when it is treated as a hard and fast set of instructions that can be "hacked" by slavish adherence to precise language.

testing22321 2mo ago

> If we enforced strict regulations on all generators without any exceptions at all, your sewage lift station might not have a backup source anymore. No need for the FUD. It would just mean the backup generator connected to the sewage lift station must meet emissions regulations, like in every developed country on earth. If you’re trying to say there are simply some generators that can’t meet emissions standards, I’m going to say you just aren’t trying.

bryanlarsen 2mo ago
Yes, that's what we're saying. A small generator cannot meet the emissions standards of a large generator.
- bob1029 2mo ago
  Some of the most effective emissions control equipment scales down very poorly. The bigger you can make the plant, the more viable these technologies become. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_scrubber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wet_scrubber https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_catalytic_reduction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_emissions_monitoring_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_emissions_monitorin... (et. al.)
- testing22321 2mo ago
  You’re just not trying. There’s no reason at all that “generator” can’t be batteries rated for x hours, or a small generator that IS emissions certified. I.e. https://www.reddit.com/r/Generator/comments/1hydy6j/recommendations_for_carb_certified_portable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Generator/comments/1hydy6j/recommen...
  - bryanlarsen 2mo ago
    that's a very different standard.

jandrewrogers 2mo ago

It isn't just emergency generators. Many non-emergency generators are used because there is no grid to connect to and/or the power requirements are not anticipated to be permanent. The cost of a grid connection can greatly exceed anything justified by the use case. There are entire industries that live off of large portable generators for non-emergency purposes because it is the only way to get power where you need it.

_DeadFred_ 2mo ago

And now we will have to add more bureaucracy and regulations to the process because of the tech bro's abuses of reasonable carveouts. More bureaucracy that future tech bros/right wingers will complain about existing even though they chose to force the matter to the point of regulation.