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>And even if they were that doesn't mean the US shouldn't sanction them for supporting terrorism. careful, if you start going after neutral infrastructure prov

>And even if they were that doesn't mean the US shouldn't sanction them for supporting terrorism. careful, if you start going after neutral infrastructure providers, that means google, amazon, microsoft, meta, and more will also need to go. i guarantee more terrorism-related content is discussed via those providers than a/i. we should probably also go after internet service providers, too. maybe the companies that make the fiber optics? (has anyone checked who is providing terrorists with electricity?)

dirasieb 2mo ago
except they aren't neutral, which is the whole point
- john_strinlai 2mo ago
  did you read the part where nonethewiser said "And even if they were [neutral] that doesn't mean the US shouldn't sanction them for supporting terrorism."? the double-negative might be confusing, so we can reword it to: "And even if they were neutral, the US should sanction them for supporting terrorism" that's the part i quoted and my comment is about.
jayGlow 2mo ago
i would agree there as long as the providers are actually neutral they should be free from culpability. we shouldn't encourage providers to restrict who they serve because of potential liability, that's giving them way to much power.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Isn't forcing a provider to do business with everyone who asks just as bad? You're saying noblogs should be compelled to host nazi blogs. (Actual Nazis, not a euphemism. People who want Jews to be gassed.) You're also saying wedding cake bakers should be compelled to bake cakes for gay weddings.
  - jayGlow 2mo ago
    A service can't be refused for reasons like religion or race, a power company cannot refuse to serve a customer because they're black or Muslim. If a company is acting as a platform or provider they should serve customers regardless of their views and this should give them protection for being liable for their customers actions. Do you think providers should be allowed to refuse service because they don't like certain customers views?
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      It's a good question. If someone comes on my forum and posts "I strongly believe that all Jews should be immediately gassed" am I allowed to ban him or am I obligated to provide equal service?
      - jayGlow 2mo ago
        I think this comes down to whether you're a platform or a publisher, if you're a provider you're not responsible for what your usera do with your service, if you only allow selective use then you're implicitly endorsing whatever the users you allow do.
nonethewiser 2mo ago
To be explicitly clear, a "neutral infrastructure provider" does not describe A/I so your scenario is hypothetical. >careful, if you start going after neutral infrastructure providers, that means google, amazon, microsoft, meta, and more will also need to go. No, because they actively respond to removal request. Open by default, supporting request for removal. The difference comes in when you are open by default and tell the US to fuck off when they ask you to stop supporting terror groups.
- john_strinlai 2mo ago
  >To be explicitly clear, a "neutral infrastructure provider" does not describe A/I so your scenario is hypothetical. i am replying specifically to your comments about neutral providers (that's why i quoted the part of your comment that i did) >No, because they actively respond to removal request. there is still orders of magnitude more conversations going through the providers i mentioned, related to terrorism/csam/etc., which is simply not reported or not known. right now, meta is facilitating significantly more terrorism than a/i. in any case, this isn't really about terrorism. they've just overused the child-safety angle lately, and needed to drum up some anti-privacy/anti-encryption using the terrorism card.
  - nonethewiser 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - john_strinlai 2mo ago
      >So no one knows about these conversations but you know there are orders of magnitude more? Walk me through that. sure. whatsapp is used by literal billions of people. add in a few more billion people through facebook, instagram, gmail, outlook, amazon. would you like me to walk through the statistics calculations? or can you extrapolate from the billions of users? now make a guess how many people a/i has facilitated. a few thousand? a hundred thousand? >Even if that were true how would that change anything? They still comply with the US government and their mission statement isn't to empower, protect, support political extremists. because it demonstrates that the goal is not to curtail terrorism.
ktm5j 2mo ago
All the providers you mention here work with the US government in situations where their platforms are being used by terrorist organizations. It sounds like the a/i folks are specifically offering free services to a militant group, so that's why they're being sanctioned. I don't think your argument flies.
- john_strinlai 2mo ago
  if the argument is harm reduction and reducing the overall incidence of terrorism, my argument flies.
  - ktm5j 2mo ago
    Removing all the oxygen from our atmosphere would kill 100% of terrorists, that's a good strategy too right?
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - john_strinlai 2mo ago
      indeed, that would be a very effective way to reduce terrorism to 0.
      - ktm5j 2mo ago
        My point is, most people are looking for strategies that actually make sense. Shutting down Google to stop terrorism, even when Google is already cooperating with the US government, makes no sense.
        deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
        cholantesh 2mo ago
        And if the terrorist group that provides the impetus for the sanction is practically nonexistent, it's entirely sensical?
MrWiffles 2mo ago
> (has anyone checked who is providing terrorists with electricity?) Or for that matter, where they get their air?! Oh gosh golly darn, gee, if Earth is providing air to those commie bastards… I may not agree with their political views, but to say that the tool is the problem is equivalent to saying guns kill people instead of people that use guns. The problem isn’t the tool or their point of view, or then even speaking about it - the problem comes from humans not controlling themselves. Any actor taking any adverse or malicious action inspired by words or ideas isn’t the fault of the ideator or author, but of the actor failing in self control. Gotta reign this insanity in.

dirasieb 2mo ago

except they aren't neutral, which is the whole point

john_strinlai 2mo ago
did you read the part where nonethewiser said "And even if they were [neutral] that doesn't mean the US shouldn't sanction them for supporting terrorism."? the double-negative might be confusing, so we can reword it to: "And even if they were neutral, the US should sanction them for supporting terrorism" that's the part i quoted and my comment is about.

jayGlow 2mo ago

i would agree there as long as the providers are actually neutral they should be free from culpability. we shouldn't encourage providers to restrict who they serve because of potential liability, that's giving them way to much power.

inigyou 2mo ago
Isn't forcing a provider to do business with everyone who asks just as bad? You're saying noblogs should be compelled to host nazi blogs. (Actual Nazis, not a euphemism. People who want Jews to be gassed.) You're also saying wedding cake bakers should be compelled to bake cakes for gay weddings.
- jayGlow 2mo ago
  A service can't be refused for reasons like religion or race, a power company cannot refuse to serve a customer because they're black or Muslim. If a company is acting as a platform or provider they should serve customers regardless of their views and this should give them protection for being liable for their customers actions. Do you think providers should be allowed to refuse service because they don't like certain customers views?
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    It's a good question. If someone comes on my forum and posts "I strongly believe that all Jews should be immediately gassed" am I allowed to ban him or am I obligated to provide equal service?
    - jayGlow 2mo ago
      I think this comes down to whether you're a platform or a publisher, if you're a provider you're not responsible for what your usera do with your service, if you only allow selective use then you're implicitly endorsing whatever the users you allow do.

nonethewiser 2mo ago

To be explicitly clear, a "neutral infrastructure provider" does not describe A/I so your scenario is hypothetical. >careful, if you start going after neutral infrastructure providers, that means google, amazon, microsoft, meta, and more will also need to go. No, because they actively respond to removal request. Open by default, supporting request for removal. The difference comes in when you are open by default and tell the US to fuck off when they ask you to stop supporting terror groups.

john_strinlai 2mo ago
>To be explicitly clear, a "neutral infrastructure provider" does not describe A/I so your scenario is hypothetical. i am replying specifically to your comments about neutral providers (that's why i quoted the part of your comment that i did) >No, because they actively respond to removal request. there is still orders of magnitude more conversations going through the providers i mentioned, related to terrorism/csam/etc., which is simply not reported or not known. right now, meta is facilitating significantly more terrorism than a/i. in any case, this isn't really about terrorism. they've just overused the child-safety angle lately, and needed to drum up some anti-privacy/anti-encryption using the terrorism card.
- nonethewiser 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - john_strinlai 2mo ago
    >So no one knows about these conversations but you know there are orders of magnitude more? Walk me through that. sure. whatsapp is used by literal billions of people. add in a few more billion people through facebook, instagram, gmail, outlook, amazon. would you like me to walk through the statistics calculations? or can you extrapolate from the billions of users? now make a guess how many people a/i has facilitated. a few thousand? a hundred thousand? >Even if that were true how would that change anything? They still comply with the US government and their mission statement isn't to empower, protect, support political extremists. because it demonstrates that the goal is not to curtail terrorism.

ktm5j 2mo ago

All the providers you mention here work with the US government in situations where their platforms are being used by terrorist organizations. It sounds like the a/i folks are specifically offering free services to a militant group, so that's why they're being sanctioned. I don't think your argument flies.

john_strinlai 2mo ago
if the argument is harm reduction and reducing the overall incidence of terrorism, my argument flies.
- ktm5j 2mo ago
  Removing all the oxygen from our atmosphere would kill 100% of terrorists, that's a good strategy too right?
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - john_strinlai 2mo ago
    indeed, that would be a very effective way to reduce terrorism to 0.
    - ktm5j 2mo ago
      My point is, most people are looking for strategies that actually make sense. Shutting down Google to stop terrorism, even when Google is already cooperating with the US government, makes no sense.
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
      - cholantesh 2mo ago
        And if the terrorist group that provides the impetus for the sanction is practically nonexistent, it's entirely sensical?

MrWiffles 2mo ago

> (has anyone checked who is providing terrorists with electricity?) Or for that matter, where they get their air?! Oh gosh golly darn, gee, if Earth is providing air to those commie bastards… I may not agree with their political views, but to say that the tool is the problem is equivalent to saying guns kill people instead of people that use guns. The problem isn’t the tool or their point of view, or then even speaking about it - the problem comes from humans not controlling themselves. Any actor taking any adverse or malicious action inspired by words or ideas isn’t the fault of the ideator or author, but of the actor failing in self control. Gotta reign this insanity in.