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> Clean Air Act (CAA) Acid Rain Program (ARP) does not apply to power generation facilities that are not connected to a public electricity grid, commonly referr
by pyrophane 1mo ago
> Clean Air Act (CAA) Acid Rain Program (ARP) does not apply to power generation facilities that are not connected to a public electricity grid, commonly referred to as “islanded” power generation facilities.
This of course makes no sense whatever, as whether or not a power generator is connected to the grid has nothing to do with its environmental impact.
- techpression 1mo agoPretty insane, expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon, why bother with generators or the pesky local grid.
- cucumber3732842 1mo agoIf coal doesn't pencil out economically for the grid it still likely won't pencil out economically for data centers even if you remove some of the compliance stuff.
- techpression 1mo agoFair enough, I don't know if it matters short term for massive buildouts, but I'm sure whatever comes out of this is not a benefit for anyone except the owners.
- adamgordonbell 1mo agoSomebody mentioned that a solar panel field to power a data center requires a lot of impact assessment paper work and approvals. Whereas natural gas generators do not. Hence the runs on gas turbines, while solar panels are plentiful. ( Although I'd guess the consistency of power is a bigger issue. ) Running existing coal is now supposedly more expensive then putting in new wind or solar ... all else being equal.
- techpression 1mo agoThey should definitely use wind power, since you could use the fans to cool the computers at the same time! I for one would love a nice HTTP status in the form of "due to the weather being nice and calm outside, AI services are down, go outside and enjoy the day"
- Muromec 1mo agoImposing rules like that is what we are supposed to use religion for.
- jaapz 1mo agoThat might be a reason, but probably more relevant is the fact that when you want solar to provide all power for a data center, you need a lot of buffering capacity (batteries). And then you also need a back up for when the sun doesn't shine... Which is probably a gas generator. Easier to just install a gas generator then
- inigyou 1mo agoAI training, not inference, seems like it would actually be a good application for a solar powered DC because you could just checkpoint and pause when it gets cloudy. It might end up worth it for the free electricity.
- rogerrogerr 1mo agoIf you think you are building God, and every second counts, interruptions cost you way more than measly electricity.
- Kubuxu 1mo agoIt doesn’t make sense to do that, hardware deprecates in 5years (it used to be 3) and is currently very expensive. So by using this approach you double the average cost of hardware per unit of compute completed. If there wasn’t such a hardware squeeze and electricity was a higher percentage of the cost, yes, it would have made sense.
- rangestransform 1mo agoIf we didn’t have stupid regulatory bullshit and protectionism, it would be cheaper to run a data center on solar and batteries in bumfuck Nevada
- andsoitis 1mo ago> expect data center to be data center + coal power plant soon Why do you think that’s likely?
- inigyou 1mo agoBecause coal is the cheapest source of electricity that isn't banned in the USA.
- tialaramex 1mo agoAre you looking at a textbook from the 1990s or something? I'm sure that was true at some point, but it hasn't been true for a long time.
- toast0 1mo agoIt seems likely to happen again. Many US utility coal fired power plants are scheduled for retirement and will not be replaced with new coal facilities. [1] China is building lots of new coal generation, but also lots of new solar so coal use will be reduced during daylight (not the way a coal plant wants to run, but they'll adapt) Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution. [1] https://ieefa.org/resources/nowhere-go-down-us-coal-capacity-generation https://ieefa.org/resources/nowhere-go-down-us-coal-capacity...
- abenga 1mo agoThe hope is in a few more years, we'll not have a cult hell bent on accelerating the apocalypse in charge of the largest economy in the world, or are you guys planning something different?
- tialaramex 1mo ago> Give it a few more years and data centers with onsite coal will look like a genius cost cutting idea. Never mind all the pollution. The numbers keep getting worse. Building "onsite coal" is more expensive than solar and storage, but now it needs more expensive fuel and you need to dispose of the toxic coal ash which won't be free either.
- llm_nerd 1mo agoA number of data centres have been proposed in Alberta, including a giant Meta one. Alberta has a derelict, obsolete power grid that can't even serve the current population, so you might wonder how that is possible. They're coupling them with dedicated natural gas power plants. Meta finally stopped the green charade and simply dropped out of RE100, as they're all just going full speed ahead on destroying the planet.
- sensanaty 1mo agoIt literally is just a cartoon villain plan. The AI companies look at something called the "Acid Rain Program" and think to themselves "Fuck that, what's a bit of acid rain going to do?". I truly cannot comprehend the mindset here as hard as I try
- Avicebron 1mo agoI think you nailed the mindset with the "cartoon villain".
- lvspiff 1mo agoLess Snydley Whiplash and more the pig guy from captain planet though
- Schlagbohrer 1mo agoBoth of whom could happily sit together on a corporate board. It's just capitalism!
- sterlind 1mo agoHoggish Greedly if memory serves. Regardless of one's politics Captain Planet is so campy it's fun to watch MST3K-style. Remember Linka from the Soviet Union? "Imperialist pigs!"
- consensus1 1mo agoThe AI companies look at something called the "endless government bureaucracy" and they think to themselves "fuck that, I'm not waiting 10 years for all that bullshit, I'll just use the loophole." I truly cannot comprehend any other reaction because I would rather have my fingernails ripped out than deal with years of government bureaucracy.
- Muromec 1mo agoI would rather take /them/ going through fingernail ripping government bureaucracy for 10 years over /me/ having acid raid, but hey, I'm just a egoistical and don't see the Big Picture or something.
- voxic11 1mo agoI think its so that like people don't need to do an EPA assessment for their home backup generator right? They are very common where I live due to the instability of the power grid.
- Ekaros 1mo agoIt does make some sense. There are some semi-reasonable scenarios where not that much power is needed and you use electricity. Still they make no sense with data centres and there should be reasonably sensible name plate capacity on it.
- charcircuit 1mo agoYou are being confused by the names. A general name doesn't mean it is a general law that applies to everyone.
- bob1029 1mo agoMost generators not connected to the grid are for emergency backup purposes. Granted, this carve out is now clearly being abused, but the original intent is quite rational. If we enforced strict regulations on all generators without any exceptions at all, your sewage lift station might not have a backup source anymore.
- jaapz 1mo agoIf that is the original intent, why did that not get added into the law? Explicitly specififying that the exception only applies to emergency backup situations would have solved this, right?
- Muromec 1mo agoClearly codifying intent in a string of bytes is hard, especially if an alternative makes a nice sound folding into a pocket.
- bpodgursky 1mo agoBecause congress passed the law in 1970 and did not expect we'd lose the ability to pass legislation that fixes minor problems with the original laws. Since congress can't do that anymore, to maintain a functional civilization we have to turn minor loopholes in the original law into load-bearing aspects of an industrial society.
- bob1029 1mo ago"Emergency" is a spectrum. Would you be OK with one specific generation station temporarily emitting 3x more than legal limit (e.g., from the hours of 2pm to 6pm) if the alternative is a 5% increase in absolute probability of a multi-day regional blackout? What about a 10% increase? Where is your red line?
- m463 1mo agoIsn't the US in a perpetual state of emergency? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_emergencies_i...
- manwe150 1mo agoIt seems pretty much how law (specifically common law) has always worked though. If Congress thinks the law should apply to them, then Congress's job is to write a law that applies to them. The president and judicial branches are not supposed to make new laws, but rather to enforce the laws as written. My reading of the EPA's statement here is they also wanted to mildly warn the companies that if they ever in the future want to contemplate connecting to the grid (eg. to bring down costs), they should be aware that bypassing compliance now could have expensive consequences for them later. Of course, Congress (local or federal) could also change the law in the much shorter term, so there's risk to them either way if they design without any forward thought for how to comply. On the other hand, if this inquiry to the EPA was merely requesting clarity on whether they are exempt from the reporting paperwork, but are using otherwise standard and compliant designs, then maybe the law is already working generally as intended.
- miltonlost 1mo agoGiving the benefit of the doubt to this President and his EPA that they are simply enforcing the laws as intended is foolish, irrational, and against all known evidence and their own words and policies and actions.
- inigyou 1mo agoBut it does have to do with whether it's interstate commerce!
- pfdietz 1mo agoThe effects of this will be reduced by the realization that these regulations can be changed in the future. No one will make a large capital investment if it could be shut down in a few years.
- voakbasda 1mo agoMost regulations provide a grandfather clause that exempt existing players in the game.
- pfdietz 1mo agoThere is no need in law for that. And if previous regulations were enacted in bad faith, it suck to be you if you depended on them.
- autoexec 1mo ago> No one will make a large capital investment if it could be shut down in a few years. They will if they think they can bribe government to give them exemptions to the new rules or they think they can cash out and leave someone else holding the bag before that happens.
- joshstrange 1mo agoNo, no, no you don't understand it's beyond the environment, it's not in an environment, it's been towed beyond the environment.
- chinathrow 1mo agoAt this point, they can just disband the EPA, what a bunch of crooks.
- jandrewrogers 1mo agoThis program targets acid rain. It only applies to coal and diesel. No one is building off-grid coal power plants. Diesel generators are the standard for power generation where a grid connection is not readily available and/or the power needs are temporary (e.g. emergency backups). Cheap, easy logistics, and durable. This use case has always been allowed in practice because there is no practical alternative. Many industries rely on diesel generators for reliable site power. It doesn't apply to natural gas power plants such as those used in data center builds at all because they don't produce this type of pollution. I fail to see the big deal. This guidance appears to clarify the language so that it matches actual practice and intent.
- convolvatron 1mo agoburning methane does produce NO and NO2 (the N2 being oxidized at temperature). that does come down with precipitation and collect in bodies of water. over time as evaporation removes the water and its replenished with acidic rain, the concentration increases arbitrarily high. idk how much NOx a GW or two of low efficiency (20%) gas turbine units produces, how wide that plume might be, and what the envionmental impact might be. but if we employed a few people that practice doing this kind of I'm sure they could tell us with high confidence.
- hammock 1mo agoIt makes sense when you consider that the CAA is legal under the interstate commerce clause. We have state regulations that could solve this if they wanted to.
- rayiner 1mo agoCAA regulations are all based on cost-benefit analysis and also seek to exclude sources that are basically too small to be worth regulating. In this case, the governing regulations have a complex set of criteria before the permitting requirements apply: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-72/subpart-A/section-72.6 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C... These criteria were last amended in 2001, so the EPA is just applying a 25 year old regulation here.
- insane_dreamer 1mo agoAh, so only power generation facilities connected to the grid can pollute? fascinating.
- _DeadFred_ 1mo agoThere is no law https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM4H6Ix1Lt4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM4H6Ix1Lt4