6 ms·
Inhumane maybe, but our government should owe its first allegiance to our citizens wellbeing, not imported workers.
by erkt 1mo ago
Inhumane maybe, but our government should owe its first allegiance to our citizens wellbeing, not imported workers.
- mcmcmc 1mo agoThe first responsibility is to protect the rights of all people in the country. Citizenship is not required for protected rights
- 9x39 1mo ago[flagged]
- klardotsh 1mo agoThey can’t vote in most elections (except a few local elections in some places) and aren’t guaranteed entry at the border. They also can’t work a litany of jobs requiring citizenship. They get a plenty bad enough shake. Let’s grant them the absolute basics of humane treatment and a fair shake at getting citizenship, sheesh. Other countries get by just fine not having such a huge delta between haves and have nots on citizenship, and their social cohesion is better for it.
- unselect5917 1mo agoI have a better idea. Let them make their countries worth living in. If they don't like it in America they can leave. Because unlike Americans, we don't have another home country to retreat to. Most countries have MUCH higher standards for immigration and their citizens much better off for it.
- mcmcmc 1mo ago> Most countries have MUCH higher standards for immigration and their citizens much better off for it. I think your math is off. The US is in the top 10 for GDP per capita, 99% literacy rate when the global average is 87%, the poverty rate is below average, the list goes on. Most countries in the world aren’t even considered developed nations. Immigration has been America’s core growth engine for two and a half centuries. There may be problems but you are deluding yourself if you think the whole economy hasn’t benefited from immigration. Even when that immigration was through chattel slavery.
- profdevloper 1mo agoI'm relieved that the magic soil in the United States can improve these peoples' lives.
- preg_match 1mo agoIt’s a symbiotic relationship. The reason the US is so prosperous is due to immigration, mostly during the 20th century. The US cannot run off of just the existing citizens. Well, it can, for a while, but not indefinitely.
- throwaway85825 1mo agoCan't? Do citizens expire? Are you unaware of the concept of children?
- preg_match 1mo agoI am aware of the concept of children, thank you. Not sure why we have to argue like we have a stick up our asses, but here we are. As you're well aware, the US is just barely meeting replacement birth rate. Most developed countries are under it. And the big picture: the US is all about growth. Economic growth, cultural growth. If you want more of that, you need immigrants. Sorry, that's how the US has always worked. If you don't agree with it, then I'm not sure the US is the country for you. There are plenty of developed, homogeneous countries. Diversity is what makes the US the US. Please, feel free to seek a country that better aligns with your beliefs.
- unselect5917 1mo ago>As you're well aware, the US is just barely meeting replacement birth rate. Oh no, they'll have to raise wages due to lack of labor. How terrible for the working class (everyone).
- throwaway85825 1mo agoWithout immigration lowering wages more citizens would be able to afford having children. > Diversity is what makes the US the US. Is this meant as a joke? I can't tell, but it is completely ahistorical. The foundera wrote about their demographic intention extensively.
- 9x39 1mo agoA litany of jobs? Do you mean a minority of jobs - civil service, some clearance jobs, holding some offices? The Immigration and Nationality Act makes citizenship discrimination illegal. >Other countries get by just fine Which ones are your model for the US?
- HaZeust 1mo agoOh, spare me. What an unserious statement. The entire point of an I-9 is to discriminate on citizenship, which is the document that HR pesters you on for your first few days at any new job anyway.
- carlosjobim 1mo ago> They get a plenty bad enough shake. Then why are they coming if it's so bad? > Other countries get by just fine not having such a huge delta between haves and have nots on citizenship, and their social cohesion is better for it. Outside of the USA and a few other countries, there is no social cohesion at all shared between natives and immigrants/foreigners, just different levels of animosity. Even between different native ethnicities and groups.
- mcmcmc 1mo agoRights and benefits are two different things, surely you aren’t that dumb. Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security or a US Passport?
- 9x39 1mo agoIf they have almost all of the rights and almost all of the benefits but none of the responsibilities, which you ignored, then the point stands. They benefit from the entire bill of rights (arguably rightly so). They have better job prospects. They can purchase homes with federal loans. They can attend college. They can invest and own companies. They can even draw from Social Security. For now, non-citizens cannot vote openly in congressional elections, but can in minor elections like school boards and municipal votes. They cannot be drafted to defend a nation. They have to remain employed, but enforcement is questionable and creative solutions exist. It's a pretty good deal. Oh, and of course dual citizens always have an escape hatch to leave one country and their debts behind should they choose.
- mcmcmc 1mo ago[flagged]
- sokoloff 1mo ago> Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security I know they can (because I checked).
- epistasis 1mo agoIf they have paid into it like anybody else, crucially. They met their responsibilities.
- Balooga 1mo ago> Do you think non-citizens can get Social Security or a US Passport? Non-citizen Nationals can get a US passport. For example, folks born in American Samoa.
- wat10000 1mo agoThe vast majority of citizens never made a conscious choice to be one.
- epistasis 1mo agoWhat responsibility does a non-citizen shirk? They must follow lows, pay taxes, etc. Even for things like social security. I sometimes wonder where these concepts come from, because it sounds like somebody tricked you into thinking that non-citizens are somehow taking things from everybody else, rather than contributing just the same as everyone.
- lmz 1mo agoNational defense, and (more vaguely) a responsibility to keep the host country in good shape as there's no other country they can run back to if things go bad in the host country.
- mcmcmc 1mo agoThe US military has been an all volunteer force for half a century. Have you served?
- lmz 1mo agoNot even American. Just visited once for a few weeks. The answer is generic, in recent times you can compare how Ukraine or Russia can conscript their own citizens but probably not foreign workers who just work there.
- mcmcmc 1mo agoOk so you probably wouldn’t know that foreign born service members make up 5% of our military, most of those becoming naturalized citizens while serving. They’re not shirking their responsibilities anymore than natural born Americans who don’t volunteer.
- lmz 1mo agoVoluntary service is great but when you get invaded you're not going to send the H1B visa holder to the frontlines, are you?
- jpadkins 1mo agoIf citizenship is not required for protected rights, what is? If myself and 10,000 of my friends migrate to Greenland illegally, does the Greenland government have a duty to protect our rights?
- anthonypasq 1mo ago[dead]
- mcmcmc 1mo agoYes. Your rights do not include entering Greenland illegally. They do include things like being given food and water in prison until you are deported. Protected rights are inalienable, you don’t need to do something to qualify.
- ViktorRay 1mo agoThe government should not be doing inhumane things to people. This should not be a controversial statement.
- kashunstva 1mo agoSurely you would admit that this Administration’s approach to immigration has been both chaotic and cruel. The workers who were given status in the United States expected a predictable process, not one that changes weekly based on the unserious personal whims of a bored, ill-informed and vindictive man. In any case, the prioritization of citizens’ wellbeing writ large is demonstrably _not_ a feature of this Administration’s agenda.
- throwaway85825 1mo ago[flagged]
- macintux 1mo agoI wish, I desperately wish, this "both sides" fallacy would die. There has not been this level of chaos in government decision-making in generations. I have no idea how far back you'd have to go to find a president changing the rules for business arbitrarily every single month.
- throwaway85825 1mo agoI've spent the last month just dealing with new local government laws. This level of chaos has been the norm for a while now.
- consensus1 1mo agoThe entire point of a temporary visa is that the host country can refuse to renew and force you to leave the country at their whim. When you apply for such a visa you accept those terms.
- foltik 1mo agoThe entire point of a temporary visa is for the country to benefit from your labor. How does canceling it on a “whim” benefit anybody?
- UncleMeat 1mo agoAnd its going so great for our citizens wellbeing. Oodles of programs for the needy smashed to bits. Corruption and self dealing out the wazoo. Protestors shot to death by ICE agents. A legendarily stupid war fucking up international shipping. Illegal tariffs changing daily.
- epistasis 1mo agoHow, in any way does this help the wellbeing of a citizen? Why bring up that very strange point, which is completely unconnected to the massive harm here. If anything, these policies harm the citizens of the US in a myriad of ways. There's zero benefit to be had from any of this. Except for the joy tha tthe cruel feel in causing others misery, but that's not citizens, that's just a few sick people.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1mo ago>There's zero benefit to be had from any of this. From the article: "Updated guidance and training were being put in place to ensure that visa applicants don’t become a public charge under U.S. law or depend on government benefits intended for Americans in need, a spokesman for the department said Wednesday."
- foltik 1mo agoThe implication that visa applicants are receiving government benefits intended for Americans is completely unsubstantiated.
- FireBeyond 1mo agoVery true - for most of these with the exception of refugee visas (which we have stopped processing except for Afrikaaners), there is a requirement for financial sponsorship: someone the IRS can bill/garnish in a meaningful manner if you receive any government benefit within ten years of your arrival in the US.
- FireBeyond 1mo agoWhich makes zero sense, because this has always been the case. When I moved here twenty years ago on a K-1 visa, my partner had to sign an affidavit of support saying that regardless of any contributions I made (paying taxes, social security, etc.), that any "public charge" would be directly billable to her through the IRS. -And- she had to demonstrate ability to be able to meet that obligation. That financial sponsorship applies for the first ten years of the immigrant's residency. Whatever updated guidance and training is needed here is one of two things, 1) something that could be handled in a matter of days or weeks, or 2) "We have no idea how long this could take so we're suspending it indefinitely" (which is what they're doing), and the "updated guidance and training" is a smokescreen for Steven Miller's agenda of becoming a closed nation.
- waterTanuki 1mo agoThe mere suggestion that this admin is doing this or anything else for the wellbeing of its citizens is a complete departure from reality. It's very clear what the motivations are, and just because they don't seem harmful in isolation doesn't mean it's going to have no consequences for everyone else.