3 ms·

Capitalism has been judged on its own merits, and been found to be a ridiculously simplistic, unworkable system that tends toward oligarchy, massive inequality,

by antonvs 2mo ago

Capitalism has been judged on its own merits, and been found to be a ridiculously simplistic, unworkable system that tends toward oligarchy, massive inequality, and authoritarianism. The state needs to get involved to protect the unworkable system.

matkoniecz 2mo ago
Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics. (though unconstrained capitalism is not ideal) > unworkable system ? unconstrained pure capitalism has bad effects, but it is not unworkable unlike say pure communism applied at scale larger than a family
- antonvs 2mo ago
  > Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics. No, it demonstrably doesn’t. The countries that have the least problems with the issues I mentioned are ones that combine market economics with socialist approaches. In many ways, those countries are closer to market socialism than they are to pure capitalism. Also, the US’s historical use of socialism and communism as a bogeyman is starting to look less defensible as China succeeds while the US is failing, and actually doing all the immoral things it used to accuse its opponents of.
  - matkoniecz 2mo ago
    > those countries are closer to market socialism than they are to pure capitalism so they are closer to capitalism than communism > US’s historical use of socialism and communism I never visited USA or America > China succeeds while the US is failing Part of China's success was more capitalism and far less communism (and China's success is in large patch catchup after what Mao et all did)
fodkodrasz 2mo ago
Maybe you are right, at least partially, I can identify many of its flaws myself. However for example my homeland has tried communism/socialism, and went through brief periods of anarchy, and the same can be told about all. My family has lost a lot to all of these experiments (including the current capitalist one), but stability and modest prosperity are the best, and anarchism is as far from that as it gets, especially as represented by the Antifa. Even the communist regime persecuted anarchism. (though they supported it when it was not at home, as a destabilizing tool)
- antonvs 2mo ago
  > the same can be told about all. Because the idea that there's one simple ideologically-based system that's going to solve all problems is simplistic. Markets are useful, but that doesn't mean that societies should be organized around entirely around markets and private ownership of almost everything as the primary governing principle. The US has really taken this to an extreme, to the point that it has legally ruled that "money is speech", which essentially guarantees an oligarchy. Treating capitalism and communism/socialism as two sides of a binary choice is a propaganda trick, basically.
  - pcfreak30 2mo ago
    if the US considered money as speech, like code is speech, we would not be having crypto math wars on crypto/financial privacy as a concept. Tornado-cash for example would not be getting an execution with an audience in the joker "send a message" style. No, the US govt does NOT consider "money is speech".

by antonvs 2mo ago

matkoniecz 2mo ago

Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics. (though unconstrained capitalism is not ideal) > unworkable system ? unconstrained pure capitalism has bad effects, but it is not unworkable unlike say pure communism applied at scale larger than a family

antonvs 2mo ago
> Worth noting that at scale larger than family/clan/tribe it beats communism and feudalism on all relevant - to people - metrics. No, it demonstrably doesn’t. The countries that have the least problems with the issues I mentioned are ones that combine market economics with socialist approaches. In many ways, those countries are closer to market socialism than they are to pure capitalism. Also, the US’s historical use of socialism and communism as a bogeyman is starting to look less defensible as China succeeds while the US is failing, and actually doing all the immoral things it used to accuse its opponents of.
- matkoniecz 2mo ago
  > those countries are closer to market socialism than they are to pure capitalism so they are closer to capitalism than communism > US’s historical use of socialism and communism I never visited USA or America > China succeeds while the US is failing Part of China's success was more capitalism and far less communism (and China's success is in large patch catchup after what Mao et all did)

fodkodrasz 2mo ago

Maybe you are right, at least partially, I can identify many of its flaws myself. However for example my homeland has tried communism/socialism, and went through brief periods of anarchy, and the same can be told about all. My family has lost a lot to all of these experiments (including the current capitalist one), but stability and modest prosperity are the best, and anarchism is as far from that as it gets, especially as represented by the Antifa. Even the communist regime persecuted anarchism. (though they supported it when it was not at home, as a destabilizing tool)

antonvs 2mo ago
> the same can be told about all. Because the idea that there's one simple ideologically-based system that's going to solve all problems is simplistic. Markets are useful, but that doesn't mean that societies should be organized around entirely around markets and private ownership of almost everything as the primary governing principle. The US has really taken this to an extreme, to the point that it has legally ruled that "money is speech", which essentially guarantees an oligarchy. Treating capitalism and communism/socialism as two sides of a binary choice is a propaganda trick, basically.
- pcfreak30 2mo ago
  if the US considered money as speech, like code is speech, we would not be having crypto math wars on crypto/financial privacy as a concept. Tornado-cash for example would not be getting an execution with an audience in the joker "send a message" style. No, the US govt does NOT consider "money is speech".