6 ms·

I tried very hard to develop for Nostr with the idea it was an inclusive communication commons. Turns out it was a Lightning Network payments promotion project.

I tried very hard to develop for Nostr with the idea it was an inclusive communication commons. Turns out it was a Lightning Network payments promotion project. All of its users (aside from its creator) were very much more interested in Lightning than in Nostr. Dismal experience, still bitter about the effort I wasted on it.

sharperguy 3mo ago
I honestly think it would be completely legit to build a completely separate ecosystem on top of the same protocol. A separate set of relays, separate apps which connect to those relays by default, no lighting payments, different defaults, marketed to a different audience. Ultimately it is not just a single network. If users need interoperability eventually they can easily add other relays. But it's true that many people are put off by the current community.
- siwatanejo 3mo ago
  > no lighting payments Nah, you didn't understand it. Lightning is a layer-2 protocol on top of bitcoin. Nostr is the so-called layer-3. Good luck trying to build Nostr without Lightning.
  - teekert 3mo ago
    False. Nostr is not “Layer 3” in any standard technical sense. Nostr is an open, decentralized protocol for exchanging and publishing messages/events. It doesn't sit on top of Bitcoin or Lightning in the way Lightning sits on Bitcoin. You absolutely can build/use Nostr without Lightning. Stop with this (anti-crypto)-bro fear mongering (yes anti-crypto in brackets as 1 thing). It's not helping FOSS, it's doing big-tech's work. You're just lying because you hate crypto. That is as bad as the blind evangelizing of cryptocurrencies.
    - deleted 3mo ago
      [deleted]
    - siwatanejo 3mo ago
      Oh look, an anti-crypto guy that advocates for L402 support!!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 Beeeep, wrong. Next question.
      - teekert 3mo ago
        If you have any other proposal for true micropayments (as in fractions of cents of value that flow freely) please, indulge me. I for one would prefer to give value via lightning over forcing my eyeballs on ads everywhere I look. Same goes for the agents I deploy, I'd like to have methods of returning value for whatever value they extract (in the form of information).
        siwatanejo 3mo ago
        You seem to not have understood my previous message at all. You said I'm anti-crypto, then I linked you to a msg I wrote in the past advocating for L402 (which is a Lightning-based protocol). I was just telling you that you're wrong. I'm a big believer that Lightning is the only way to solve micropayments. Now get your conspiracy theories somewhere else please.
        teekert 3mo ago
        I indeed misunderstood, didn't realize that was you yourself you linked to. Sorry we are on the same boot it seems. Still, you're wrong about Nostr being useless without Lightning. And it is unhelpful to suggest it is.
        siwatanejo 3mo ago
        You stand corrected, and I stand corrected too because I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w (as suggested by other user in another comment) and it finally clicked.
        inigyou 3mo ago
  - jasonvorhe 3mo ago
    What are you even talking about? I've been building nostr apps for 2 years and never touched Lightning. wtf.
  - iamnothere 3mo ago
    It’s easy to have Nostr without it. Lightning support was an afterthought and you can just choose not to implement that NIP in the client. On the relay side you could just filter out that event type. Not hard at all. The amount of ignorance about Nostr (by both pro and antis) is astounding for such a simple concept. I feel like literally nobody reads the very short specs.
kinakomochidayo 3mo ago
Yup, it’s basically a gigantic bitcoin maxi lightning promotion project.
- teekert 3mo ago
  That is really not doing it justice. Some people say the same about podcasting 2.0, but it is so much more, even Apple is starting to pick up features from it (chapters, artwork, transcripts). Not the Lighthing/boosting no. But that's ok right? Many people get all emotional around crypto and blow it out of proportions imho. Sure there are many bad things about it, but to let your opinion of crypto taint so many nice tings is sad imho.
  - madeofpalk 3mo ago
    Chapters and artwork have been features of podcasting since the very beginning. They've been supported in mp3 for like over 20 years.
    - teekert 3mo ago
      This is about the structure of metadata, why would you want to tie this to a file format? Even Apple realizes that is not the way to go. And what about transcripts then, Person/guest metadata, Chapter artwork, Live tags (so you can tune in live in a podcasting app)? "Some subset of these features is in MP3" is not a valid response.
      - dbspin 3mo ago
        I think you'll need a more sterling critique than 'why would you wnat to tie this to a file format', to the most successful open source media technology of all time. Aside - yes there are or were legal issues with the fraunhofer patents for MP3, but these weren't enough to stop the LAME project and expired in 2017. The combination of MP3 and RSS should be studied as quite likely the most popular open format ever. They've kept podcasting out of the hands of wannabe privatisers from spotify to apple for twenty years.
  - 3mo ago
exabyte 3mo ago
NOSTR is a protocol so there's no entity for you to be bitter with... You can be annoyed at the people who were on there, but that's a different subject. There's probably a better analogy than this, but what you're describing would be like playing soccer and being annoyed that your teammates are furries. Go find another team to play with.
- phrotoma 3mo ago
  This in HN, everybody in here has been bitter with a protocol at some point in their career.
- lxgr 3mo ago
  But now imagine that the regulating body of your favorite hobby sport is deeply corrupt and fundamentally profit driven, so while playing with your friends is still fun, just thinking about ever competing at the regional level makes you shiver. [1] Sure, you can always fork a protocol/not federate with who you dislike etc., but you might find yourself fighting an uphill battle against other people’s experiences and preconceptions. Protocols are ultimately always designed by people too. [1] Note that I have no experience with either Nostr or professional football, so take this as a purely hypothetical analogy with no relation to real organizations. I have to assume both are lovely passion projects by people that just share a common passion.
  - exabyte 3mo ago
    Sure, Fifa is quite corrupt. I still like to play soccer with my friends and organized sports in my town. I don't refuse to play the game simply because of Fifa.
  - newguy1000 3mo ago
    This makes no sense. It's a protocol.
    - Dylan16807 3mo ago
      It didn't float up from the mariana trench. There's a group of people that are effectively in charge of the protocol.
littlecranky67 3mo ago
You can't blame the protocol for the user it attracts. It is in early development. Just imagine the year is 1996 and you are complaining that WWW, IRC and the USENET is full of male tech nerds with a STEM background and a taste in SciFi/Fantasy culture. It will take some a while for the evolution to happen until you can get your beauty and makeup styling content.
- no_time 3mo ago
  >full of male tech nerds with a STEM background and a taste in SciFi/Fantasy culture. Anything like this in 2026?
  - pjc50 3mo ago
    You're on hacker news.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      But it's a website for VC funds and people hoping to get rich.
  - krapp 3mo ago
    You're posting on it.
- Barrin92 3mo ago
  >you are complaining that WWW, IRC and the USENET is full of male tech nerds with a STEM background and a taste in SciFi/Fantasy culture that'd be a big step up because when I tried Nostr the last time I didn't even see people discussing computer science or pulp literature, but just random cryptocurrency nonsense, the equivalent of a room full of high school dropouts trying to sell you Tupperware at the door I do think you can blame a protocol for the users it attracts. The medium's the message. A protocol is designed with intent, if there was no relation between a protocol and its users, what's the point of inventing it, just use an existing one.
nunobrito 3mo ago
That is an unfair judgement. There are people there using LN, just as there are others using Monero, BCH or whatever crypto rocks their boat. I develop for NOSTR and use zero cryptocurrencies because the communication aspect is what matters, especially the account with npubs which are basically universal entry cards to avoid anyone having to create separate accounts just to use some website or app.
- marc26z 3mo ago
  I'm interested in seeing more nostr clients that do not implement cryptocurrency. Can you please share some examples?
  - nunobrito 3mo ago
    From top of my mind would say https://coracle.social/ https://coracle.social/ and on Android the darkwisp from: https://zapstore.dev/apps/com.darkwisp.app https://zapstore.dev/apps/com.darkwisp.app There are so many clients, here is a site that tries to keep up with what exists: https://nostrapps.com/ https://nostrapps.com/
chr15m 3mo ago
You can use a technology without agreeing with the views of other users of the technology. You don't have to follow those people.
- inigyou 3mo ago
  These things have more effects than you think. IPFS just lost all funding because the NFT craze is over and they didn't find any alternative grift. That means the public gateways and general knowledge of the project will fade away and there won't be maintenance on the software.
  - chr15m 3mo ago
    IPFS did not lose all funding. Please check your facts. IPFS has largely failed to find adoption as a protocol because it was over engineered and did not give users what they want. People don't want decentralization. What they want is the downstream effects of decentralization like privacy, disaggregation of powerful entities, and permissionless participation. For a protocol to be adopted it needs to give individual users these things in practice, not simply be "decentralized" in design.
    - inigyou 3mo ago
      People don't actually want any of those things either. People want to click on a button and see the dancing bunnies.
- sph 3mo ago
  No virtue signaling? In the social media age? How else would I get upvoted to the top of the comment section? But then they don’t have no issue giving money to powerful people that likely don’t share their righteous worldview.
thataccount 3mo ago
In its early inception, it wasn't so bad about that. As it grew, though, it became insular and favored those who were going to the conventions for bitcoin and shouted things like "Pura Vida". My "done with it" moment was when there was a lady from some Latin American place who was asking for donations so she could go to one of those Bitcoin talks in Costa Rica, and everyone ignored her. It was weird to see people going to her basic geography, and completing ignoring and leaving someone behind who was "very into" the ethos, but said much about the project.
- dmnyc 3mo ago
  If you’re talking about who I think you are, it’s because she is a scammer and a stalker and everyone on Nostr is completely fed up with her. The community is extraordinarily welcoming of honest people producing honest content.
- Dylan16807 3mo ago
  Someone couldn't get free money to visit a convention, especially a bitcoin one? That hardly seems like a negative to me.
  - thataccount 3mo ago
    Pray you never require charity, poster.
    - Dylan16807 3mo ago
      You put the word "require" there. That makes me think one of us has deeply misunderstood the situation... Also, even purely in the umbrella of "giving money to strangers for them to have fun", a bitcoin conference is a weak use.
      - thataccount 3mo ago
        You really don't understand what is going on in places like Latin America with Bitcoin do you? Let me enlighten you a little. People with a ton of Bitcoin go there to have fun, while trying to sell poor villages on the idea that Bitcoin will free them from poverty the rest of the world puts them in. The woman in question was in one of those villages, believing their idea that Bitcoin could free her and her village. They ignored her, and instead showed epic pictures of how carnivore and stuff they are. It's disgusting.

sharperguy 3mo ago

I honestly think it would be completely legit to build a completely separate ecosystem on top of the same protocol. A separate set of relays, separate apps which connect to those relays by default, no lighting payments, different defaults, marketed to a different audience. Ultimately it is not just a single network. If users need interoperability eventually they can easily add other relays. But it's true that many people are put off by the current community.

siwatanejo 3mo ago
> no lighting payments Nah, you didn't understand it. Lightning is a layer-2 protocol on top of bitcoin. Nostr is the so-called layer-3. Good luck trying to build Nostr without Lightning.
- teekert 3mo ago
  False. Nostr is not “Layer 3” in any standard technical sense. Nostr is an open, decentralized protocol for exchanging and publishing messages/events. It doesn't sit on top of Bitcoin or Lightning in the way Lightning sits on Bitcoin. You absolutely can build/use Nostr without Lightning. Stop with this (anti-crypto)-bro fear mongering (yes anti-crypto in brackets as 1 thing). It's not helping FOSS, it's doing big-tech's work. You're just lying because you hate crypto. That is as bad as the blind evangelizing of cryptocurrencies.
  - deleted 3mo ago
    [deleted]
  - siwatanejo 3mo ago
    Oh look, an anti-crypto guy that advocates for L402 support!!: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48281948 Beeeep, wrong. Next question.
    - teekert 3mo ago
      If you have any other proposal for true micropayments (as in fractions of cents of value that flow freely) please, indulge me. I for one would prefer to give value via lightning over forcing my eyeballs on ads everywhere I look. Same goes for the agents I deploy, I'd like to have methods of returning value for whatever value they extract (in the form of information).
      - siwatanejo 3mo ago
        You seem to not have understood my previous message at all. You said I'm anti-crypto, then I linked you to a msg I wrote in the past advocating for L402 (which is a Lightning-based protocol). I was just telling you that you're wrong. I'm a big believer that Lightning is the only way to solve micropayments. Now get your conspiracy theories somewhere else please.
        teekert 3mo ago
        I indeed misunderstood, didn't realize that was you yourself you linked to. Sorry we are on the same boot it seems. Still, you're wrong about Nostr being useless without Lightning. And it is unhelpful to suggest it is.
        siwatanejo 3mo ago
        You stand corrected, and I stand corrected too because I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt3jL1Ms0w (as suggested by other user in another comment) and it finally clicked.
      - inigyou 3mo ago
- jasonvorhe 3mo ago
  What are you even talking about? I've been building nostr apps for 2 years and never touched Lightning. wtf.
- iamnothere 3mo ago
  It’s easy to have Nostr without it. Lightning support was an afterthought and you can just choose not to implement that NIP in the client. On the relay side you could just filter out that event type. Not hard at all. The amount of ignorance about Nostr (by both pro and antis) is astounding for such a simple concept. I feel like literally nobody reads the very short specs.

kinakomochidayo 3mo ago

Yup, it’s basically a gigantic bitcoin maxi lightning promotion project.

teekert 3mo ago
That is really not doing it justice. Some people say the same about podcasting 2.0, but it is so much more, even Apple is starting to pick up features from it (chapters, artwork, transcripts). Not the Lighthing/boosting no. But that's ok right? Many people get all emotional around crypto and blow it out of proportions imho. Sure there are many bad things about it, but to let your opinion of crypto taint so many nice tings is sad imho.
- madeofpalk 3mo ago
  Chapters and artwork have been features of podcasting since the very beginning. They've been supported in mp3 for like over 20 years.
  - teekert 3mo ago
    This is about the structure of metadata, why would you want to tie this to a file format? Even Apple realizes that is not the way to go. And what about transcripts then, Person/guest metadata, Chapter artwork, Live tags (so you can tune in live in a podcasting app)? "Some subset of these features is in MP3" is not a valid response.
    - dbspin 3mo ago
      I think you'll need a more sterling critique than 'why would you wnat to tie this to a file format', to the most successful open source media technology of all time. Aside - yes there are or were legal issues with the fraunhofer patents for MP3, but these weren't enough to stop the LAME project and expired in 2017. The combination of MP3 and RSS should be studied as quite likely the most popular open format ever. They've kept podcasting out of the hands of wannabe privatisers from spotify to apple for twenty years.
- 3mo ago

exabyte 3mo ago

NOSTR is a protocol so there's no entity for you to be bitter with... You can be annoyed at the people who were on there, but that's a different subject. There's probably a better analogy than this, but what you're describing would be like playing soccer and being annoyed that your teammates are furries. Go find another team to play with.

phrotoma 3mo ago
This in HN, everybody in here has been bitter with a protocol at some point in their career.
lxgr 3mo ago
But now imagine that the regulating body of your favorite hobby sport is deeply corrupt and fundamentally profit driven, so while playing with your friends is still fun, just thinking about ever competing at the regional level makes you shiver. [1] Sure, you can always fork a protocol/not federate with who you dislike etc., but you might find yourself fighting an uphill battle against other people’s experiences and preconceptions. Protocols are ultimately always designed by people too. [1] Note that I have no experience with either Nostr or professional football, so take this as a purely hypothetical analogy with no relation to real organizations. I have to assume both are lovely passion projects by people that just share a common passion.
- exabyte 3mo ago
  Sure, Fifa is quite corrupt. I still like to play soccer with my friends and organized sports in my town. I don't refuse to play the game simply because of Fifa.
- newguy1000 3mo ago
  This makes no sense. It's a protocol.
  - Dylan16807 3mo ago
    It didn't float up from the mariana trench. There's a group of people that are effectively in charge of the protocol.

littlecranky67 3mo ago

You can't blame the protocol for the user it attracts. It is in early development. Just imagine the year is 1996 and you are complaining that WWW, IRC and the USENET is full of male tech nerds with a STEM background and a taste in SciFi/Fantasy culture. It will take some a while for the evolution to happen until you can get your beauty and makeup styling content.

no_time 3mo ago
>full of male tech nerds with a STEM background and a taste in SciFi/Fantasy culture. Anything like this in 2026?
- pjc50 3mo ago
  You're on hacker news.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    But it's a website for VC funds and people hoping to get rich.
- krapp 3mo ago
  You're posting on it.
Barrin92 3mo ago
>you are complaining that WWW, IRC and the USENET is full of male tech nerds with a STEM background and a taste in SciFi/Fantasy culture that'd be a big step up because when I tried Nostr the last time I didn't even see people discussing computer science or pulp literature, but just random cryptocurrency nonsense, the equivalent of a room full of high school dropouts trying to sell you Tupperware at the door I do think you can blame a protocol for the users it attracts. The medium's the message. A protocol is designed with intent, if there was no relation between a protocol and its users, what's the point of inventing it, just use an existing one.

nunobrito 3mo ago

That is an unfair judgement. There are people there using LN, just as there are others using Monero, BCH or whatever crypto rocks their boat. I develop for NOSTR and use zero cryptocurrencies because the communication aspect is what matters, especially the account with npubs which are basically universal entry cards to avoid anyone having to create separate accounts just to use some website or app.

marc26z 3mo ago
I'm interested in seeing more nostr clients that do not implement cryptocurrency. Can you please share some examples?
- nunobrito 3mo ago
  From top of my mind would say https://coracle.social/ https://coracle.social/ and on Android the darkwisp from: https://zapstore.dev/apps/com.darkwisp.app https://zapstore.dev/apps/com.darkwisp.app There are so many clients, here is a site that tries to keep up with what exists: https://nostrapps.com/ https://nostrapps.com/

chr15m 3mo ago

You can use a technology without agreeing with the views of other users of the technology. You don't have to follow those people.

inigyou 3mo ago
These things have more effects than you think. IPFS just lost all funding because the NFT craze is over and they didn't find any alternative grift. That means the public gateways and general knowledge of the project will fade away and there won't be maintenance on the software.
- chr15m 3mo ago
  IPFS did not lose all funding. Please check your facts. IPFS has largely failed to find adoption as a protocol because it was over engineered and did not give users what they want. People don't want decentralization. What they want is the downstream effects of decentralization like privacy, disaggregation of powerful entities, and permissionless participation. For a protocol to be adopted it needs to give individual users these things in practice, not simply be "decentralized" in design.
  - inigyou 3mo ago
    People don't actually want any of those things either. People want to click on a button and see the dancing bunnies.
sph 3mo ago
No virtue signaling? In the social media age? How else would I get upvoted to the top of the comment section? But then they don’t have no issue giving money to powerful people that likely don’t share their righteous worldview.

thataccount 3mo ago

In its early inception, it wasn't so bad about that. As it grew, though, it became insular and favored those who were going to the conventions for bitcoin and shouted things like "Pura Vida". My "done with it" moment was when there was a lady from some Latin American place who was asking for donations so she could go to one of those Bitcoin talks in Costa Rica, and everyone ignored her. It was weird to see people going to her basic geography, and completing ignoring and leaving someone behind who was "very into" the ethos, but said much about the project.

dmnyc 3mo ago
If you’re talking about who I think you are, it’s because she is a scammer and a stalker and everyone on Nostr is completely fed up with her. The community is extraordinarily welcoming of honest people producing honest content.
Dylan16807 3mo ago
Someone couldn't get free money to visit a convention, especially a bitcoin one? That hardly seems like a negative to me.
- thataccount 3mo ago
  Pray you never require charity, poster.
  - Dylan16807 3mo ago
    You put the word "require" there. That makes me think one of us has deeply misunderstood the situation... Also, even purely in the umbrella of "giving money to strangers for them to have fun", a bitcoin conference is a weak use.
    - thataccount 3mo ago
      You really don't understand what is going on in places like Latin America with Bitcoin do you? Let me enlighten you a little. People with a ton of Bitcoin go there to have fun, while trying to sell poor villages on the idea that Bitcoin will free them from poverty the rest of the world puts them in. The woman in question was in one of those villages, believing their idea that Bitcoin could free her and her village. They ignored her, and instead showed epic pictures of how carnivore and stuff they are. It's disgusting.