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China is nowhere near “free market”. Their EV sector received more government subsidies in the last 15 years than the entire U.S. automobile market since incept

China is nowhere near “free market”. Their EV sector received more government subsidies in the last 15 years than the entire U.S. automobile market since inception. The total subsidies make up half of the market cap of their entire EV industry. 250 billion in EV subsidies from China. 10 billion by the U.S.

testing22321 1mo ago
You’re forgetting the 9.3$ billion given to us automakers to bail them out that was never recovered.
oblio 1mo ago
The US auto industry is also subsidized by all aspects of American life requiring a car outside of NYC and a few big cities.
- fedpost 1mo ago
  Also just directly by the USG, see "Cash for Clunkers".
- zelphirkalt 1mo ago
  That's an interesting point actually. Most places in China and even quite rural ones are livable and reachable via public transport including trains. Most of their big cities are very convenient to get around in just by walking and metro or sometimes taking a bus.
thefourthchime 1mo ago
Yep, it's pretty much just illegal dumping.
- Dylan16807 1mo ago
  The vast majority of that money went to car purchasing assistance. It helps build the industry up but it doesn't change the actual price.
runako 1mo ago
> The total subsidies make up half of the market cap of their entire EV industry. Didn't Tesla essentially stay afloat for years via government subsidies (e.g. government-mandated carbon credits)? Didn't the US only recently end its direct subsidies for EV buyers? Don't US taxpayers provide an enormous ongoing subsidy to ICE vehicles by underwriting the security of the oilfields in the Gulf? Don't US taxpayers in effect subsidize US automakers by ensuring they do not have to compete in the market with the best available vehicles? More to the point: American free-marketeerism was never about the other side, it was about the US living its own professed values at home. We didn't shackle our press in discussions about the USSR because the USSR chose to shackle its own press. Our lockout of Chinese EVs rankles in part because it's a deviation, at home, from our own professed values.
- dirck-norman 1mo ago
  This is a false equivalence. Adding carbon credits the U.S. is close to 20 billion in EV subsidies. The ENTIRE EU spent 125 billion. China supplied 250 billion to a 400 billion dollar industry and is facing overproduction. It’s dishonest to say it’s the same. Free market capitalism isn’t binary. If that’s what you think, you’re gravely misinformed.
  - Dylan16807 1mo ago
    Just to be clear, that 250 billion is for 15 years and 400 billion is the current per-year number. The subsidies were around 25% of sales in 2018 and have dropped down to about 10%. And of that 250 billion, half is a sales tax exemption and a quarter is purchase rebates. That bulk of the money doesn't lead to unfair competition. https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dilemma-subsidized-yet-striking https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil...
  - runako 1mo ago
    > dishonest to say it’s the same. I literally didn't say that it was? In any case, the point is that the US also subsidizes markets, including the auto markets. China is far from unique in this. As you say, free market capitalism isn't binary, and in this case all parties are subsidizing to some degree.
cpursley 1mo ago
Even without the subsidies, at this point, they’re arguably making better cars.
7734128 1mo ago
No, it's actually 200 000 trillion for both countries. Source: same as yours
nerdsniper 1mo ago
[flagged]
- dirck-norman 1mo ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 1mo ago
    > You got emotional and Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. Your comment would be fine without that bit https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 1mo ago
  > Where the fuck are you getting these numbers from? Hey, can you please not break the site guidelines like this, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - nerdsniper 1mo ago
    Heard and fixed. Thanks Dan.
    - dang 1mo ago
      Appreciated!
asadotzler 1mo ago
The only serious EV maker in the US has received more US subsidizing than any single Chinese maker.
twobitshifter 1mo ago
Isn’t this just good strategy? Shouldn’t government subsidize the things it wants more of?
Johanx64 1mo ago
If China government kickstarted their EV sector (along many others) and enabled them to be competitive, strong and dominating. That means the Chinese government is doing a really good job. I really hate this argument where every government across the globe have to basically be a drag which sucks the life out of an economy and wastes extracted resources (taxes) on bullshit instead of putting them to good use. This is what winning looks like fellas, and you're just losing. Get used to it as there's only going to be more of this.

testing22321 1mo ago

You’re forgetting the 9.3$ billion given to us automakers to bail them out that was never recovered.

oblio 1mo ago

The US auto industry is also subsidized by all aspects of American life requiring a car outside of NYC and a few big cities.

fedpost 1mo ago
Also just directly by the USG, see "Cash for Clunkers".
zelphirkalt 1mo ago
That's an interesting point actually. Most places in China and even quite rural ones are livable and reachable via public transport including trains. Most of their big cities are very convenient to get around in just by walking and metro or sometimes taking a bus.

thefourthchime 1mo ago

Yep, it's pretty much just illegal dumping.

Dylan16807 1mo ago
The vast majority of that money went to car purchasing assistance. It helps build the industry up but it doesn't change the actual price.

runako 1mo ago

> The total subsidies make up half of the market cap of their entire EV industry. Didn't Tesla essentially stay afloat for years via government subsidies (e.g. government-mandated carbon credits)? Didn't the US only recently end its direct subsidies for EV buyers? Don't US taxpayers provide an enormous ongoing subsidy to ICE vehicles by underwriting the security of the oilfields in the Gulf? Don't US taxpayers in effect subsidize US automakers by ensuring they do not have to compete in the market with the best available vehicles? More to the point: American free-marketeerism was never about the other side, it was about the US living its own professed values at home. We didn't shackle our press in discussions about the USSR because the USSR chose to shackle its own press. Our lockout of Chinese EVs rankles in part because it's a deviation, at home, from our own professed values.

dirck-norman 1mo ago
This is a false equivalence. Adding carbon credits the U.S. is close to 20 billion in EV subsidies. The ENTIRE EU spent 125 billion. China supplied 250 billion to a 400 billion dollar industry and is facing overproduction. It’s dishonest to say it’s the same. Free market capitalism isn’t binary. If that’s what you think, you’re gravely misinformed.
- Dylan16807 1mo ago
  Just to be clear, that 250 billion is for 15 years and 400 billion is the current per-year number. The subsidies were around 25% of sales in 2018 and have dropped down to about 10%. And of that 250 billion, half is a sales tax exemption and a quarter is purchase rebates. That bulk of the money doesn't lead to unfair competition. https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dilemma-subsidized-yet-striking https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dil...
- runako 1mo ago
  > dishonest to say it’s the same. I literally didn't say that it was? In any case, the point is that the US also subsidizes markets, including the auto markets. China is far from unique in this. As you say, free market capitalism isn't binary, and in this case all parties are subsidizing to some degree.

cpursley 1mo ago

Even without the subsidies, at this point, they’re arguably making better cars.

7734128 1mo ago

No, it's actually 200 000 trillion for both countries. Source: same as yours

nerdsniper 1mo ago

[flagged]

dirck-norman 1mo ago
[flagged]
- dang 1mo ago
  > You got emotional and Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. Your comment would be fine without that bit https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 1mo ago
> Where the fuck are you getting these numbers from? Hey, can you please not break the site guidelines like this, no matter how wrong someone is or you feel they are? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- nerdsniper 1mo ago
  Heard and fixed. Thanks Dan.
  - dang 1mo ago
    Appreciated!

asadotzler 1mo ago

The only serious EV maker in the US has received more US subsidizing than any single Chinese maker.

twobitshifter 1mo ago

Isn’t this just good strategy? Shouldn’t government subsidize the things it wants more of?

Johanx64 1mo ago

If China government kickstarted their EV sector (along many others) and enabled them to be competitive, strong and dominating. That means the Chinese government is doing a really good job. I really hate this argument where every government across the globe have to basically be a drag which sucks the life out of an economy and wastes extracted resources (taxes) on bullshit instead of putting them to good use. This is what winning looks like fellas, and you're just losing. Get used to it as there's only going to be more of this.