5 ms·
Tragically, as many as 9625 out of every 10k individuals may be neurotypical
- deleted 1mo ago[deleted]
- austin-cheney 1mo ago> This site is an expression of autistic outrage. Obviously. It would come off as sarcastic humor if so many of the basic facts were correct. Neurotypical people are only just above 80% of the population, so the author is in more common company than they believe.
- danparsonson 1mo agoWell the original is more than 20 years old; hopefully they are feeling a bit happier now.
- roenxi 1mo agoI'm torn on whether I like this parody. It is quite funny and IMO in good taste (which is hard to do when diagnosing 9,625 out of every 10,000 as deficient). It probably works well as an in-joke for people who prefer critical thinking to social proof. But it isn't really appropriate to fight fire with fire when it comes to calling people disordered and the people who need to hear the message won't understand it because they key off social proof. In fact, they may literally not understand the gentle ribbing and might respond poorly. 3/5 stars.
- cam_l 1mo ago>In fact, they may literally not understand the gentle ribbing and might respond poorly. That, IMHO, is what makes it so delicious.
- ThrowawayR2 1mo ago"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me." - Nathaniel Lee, playwright, on being confined to a madhouse for 5 years. Taking jabs at the majoritarian viewpoints enough to get noticed rarely ends well.
- watwut 1mo ago> t probably works well as an in-joke for people who prefer critical thinking to social proof. Autistic and neuroatypical are not better critical thinkers. Fairly often they just ... dont understand certain things. And wont accept clear straightforward plain language explanation of what others want, because in their heads they should not.
- _puk 1mo ago> wont accept clear straightforward plain language explanation of what others want From experience this feels to me like a very NT thing to say (apologies if you're not NT, no context to determine either way) - it comes across as written: "Why can't you just do what I ask you". Often it feels atypical people require a logical understanding from first principles of why something should be done. Then, once they have that they need to come to the same conclusion of what the course of action is. If they're aligned, awesome. If not, then the work is to try to make them understand why, given the current constraints and cultural context, their optimal approach is suboptimal in this situation. Something as simple as "yes your idea is great, it will work better then theirs, but sometimes others need to fail so that they can learn from their failure" - exact quote. I'm speaking to a very limited subset here based on quite a bit of exposure in many contexts. "Neuroatypical" shows up in many, many ways.
- benj111 1mo agoWhat? You try reading the actual written policies of any large organisation. Then find the places where they aren't following their rules, then point out with reference to the written rules what they're doing wrong. Then see what happens.
- AlexeyBelov 1mo agoSorry, I don't understand. What do you think will happen?
- AnthonBerg 1mo agoAllistic and neurotypical people are not better critical thinkers either. Fairly often they just… don't understand certain things. And wont accept clear straightforward plain language explanation of what others want, because in their heads they should not.
- antonvs 1mo agoI don’t think it’s so much as fighting fire with fire, as just reframing and correcting the usual biased assumptions about what it means to be “typical”.
- benj111 1mo agoI like to call NTs Neuro boring. Or 'Nobs' for short...
- soneil 1mo agoIt’s probably worth noting it’s (2002) too. The internet was a different audience.
- cjs_ac 1mo agoIt’s obvious that this page was written by an autistic person because the top third is a fairly witty and insightful joke and the bottom third is an explanation of the joke.
- poulpy123 1mo ago[flagged]
- _puk 1mo agoMaybe. But this site was last updated in 2002. A different world.
- lukeify 1mo agoIs there value to people constantly self-diagnosing themselves or seeking clinical diagnoses for neurodivergency? I don't mean this in a disparaging way; but surely constantly seeking to remind both yourself and society of your neurodivergency and any shortcomings you have with that seems almost like a crab bucket mentality that you are enveloping yourself with. I don't have a problem with people looking inwards, but surely to maintain any kind of rationality you need to balance it by also reminding yourself to look outwards.
- JohnMakin 1mo agoWhy do you think this person is self diagnosed?
- deleted 1mo ago[deleted]
- spider-mario 1mo agoNeurodivergence does not require a diagnosis. https://sherlocksflataffect.tumblr.com/post/121295972384/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent https://sherlocksflataffect.tumblr.com/post/121295972384/psa... And looking outwards is exactly what it does since it references societal neuronormativity. It’s not about the “shortcomings you have”.
- lukeify 1mo agoIf you're looking outwards merely just to look inwards again, then you're missing the point of what I'm trying to say.
- dgellow 1mo agoWhat’s your point? I also don’t get it. Neurotypicality is by definition outward, neurodivergence is defined by your relation to the overall society expectations
- spider-mario 1mo ago
- rglullis 1mo ago> written by some "expert" from the perspective that neurotypical perception is correct, and my brain is a genetic mistake. Well, it is a mistake. It is a deviation from the normal path. But so what? "Correct" and "mistake" are not antonyms. Without any mistakes, there would no be life in the world as we know. This is not a moral codemnation of any individual. > I and my experience of life is not inferior, and may be superior, to the NT experience of life. I am not quite able to put in words right now, but the sentiment expressed here seems like a perfect illustration of what happens when we let society become hyper-atomized and the fetishization of the individual.
- amelius 1mo ago> Well, it is a mistake. If you say it is a mistake, then you must know what the goal is.
- rglullis 1mo agoIf we are talking about genes, the goal is to keep the ability to duplicate itself. If there is anything about this duplication process that has lead to the individual's brain development with difficulties to adapt to life with their tribe, socialization and chances of finding a mate are also hindered.
- ozlikethewizard 1mo agoThe prevalance of these traits shows that it wasn't always a hinderance. Capitalist society predominantly valuing conformity is the issue.
- potatoking 1mo agoThat's not how genetics of sexual reproduction works. I think it's only fair to say that we can't truly do a qualitative measure of the impact of any condition on fitness.
- rglullis 1mo ago
- chadcmulligan 1mo agoI sometimes wonder if there are other possible neurodivergence, I'm not neurotypical, but I'm also not autistic (at least according to the criteria I've seen), just a bit odd or quirky doesn't seem to be enough.
- wyre 1mo agoADHD, OCD, BPD, bipolar are all forms of neurodivergent. I'm sure there are more too.
- spider-mario 1mo agoNeurodivergent is absolutely not a synonym for autistic. https://sherlocksflataffect.tumblr.com/post/121295972384/psa-from-the-actual-coiner-of-neurodivergent https://sherlocksflataffect.tumblr.com/post/121295972384/psa... https://neuroqueer.com/neurodiversity-terms-and-definitions/ https://neuroqueer.com/neurodiversity-terms-and-definitions/
- chadcmulligan 1mo agoThanks for the links - from the OP post "Neurotypical syndrome is a neurobiological disorder characterized by preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity." I know this is a gag, but I see things like this and think oh maybe I'm autistic but no, I have the same complaints autistic people have, I just call it deathly dull, who knows.
- crooked-v 1mo agoSee also "Am I German or Autistic?", which despite the cheeky title, does a pretty good job showing the balance between cultural and mindset patterns and autism spectrum traits. https://german.millermanschool.com https://german.millermanschool.com
- chadcmulligan 1mo agoDisappointing - it seems I'm neither German or Autistic, but normal, and yet my experience suggests otherwise
- Uptrenda 1mo agoThe neurodivergent label was always incredibly stupid though. It's an entire movement trying to make it sound that having a pathological condition is fashionable. Something like a super quirky, human difference, as opposed to a health problem. Even though the condition is defined in the context of reduced functioning in society. OPs site is a good example of that flawed line of thinking. The bigger issue is that the various illnesses under the "neurodivergent" umbrella have wide differences in impact. So you might get people who function in society and others who can't do anything. The former of which wants to make it some quirky personality trait. They both still have the condition though...
- ozlikethewizard 1mo agoIt's not a health problem though. Neurodivergency (christ I hate that word) is far more prevalent than you'd expect, particularly ASD and ADHD, some 20% of the population. These traits have self selected for a reason, and any issues encountered are a fault of modern society not the individual imo.
- neuroticnews25 1mo agoDo you think there was ever a time when systemizing type thinking was more beneficial than now?
- dofm 1mo ago> These traits have self selected for a reason, and any issues encountered are a fault of modern society not the individual imo. I mean, quite apart from the fact that you can be so profoundly autistic that you are vulnerable and cognitively limited, and so profoundly ADHD that you are incapable of keeping yourself safe. I am as yet formally undiagnosed ADHD; it is obvious, so obvious to me that either I am in later life finally unable to blunder through with the ADHD patterns that are evident throughout my life, or I have early onset dementia (which is how severe it often feels). It is in no way society's fault that I am impaired. I have no special talents from my condition that other people with better time management could not also have acquired (and often do, better than me). There may be a benefit to society from my profound inability to manage time leading to me productively hyperfocussing on something that society wants, but this comes at a cost to my health. So I don't really care for the idea that these traits might "select"; it is a disorder.
- amelius 1mo agoReminds me of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_parody https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_parody
- iinnPP 1mo agoAs someone who relates to the article, it reads a lot less like humor. It's a grim reality. Constantly being told there's something wrong with you, only to see clearly those around you, has a profoundly awful impact. Eventually it's replaced by more accurate internal modeling.
- jongjong 1mo agoSo true. NT people are so frustrating! The scenario which drives me insane is; someone tells me some popular mainstream narrative about why we should do something in a particular way. Essentially just parroting expert consensus on a similar topic. I tell them exactly why this approach wouldn't work in that particular case and they concede to all my points. They fully agree and don't push back on anything. But then a few minutes later, they're still pushing for the exact same mainstream expert consensus approach and ignoring all my earlier points which they had literally just agreed to. WTF. The impression I get is that they liked how my arguments sounded superficially and felt that other people in the meeting also agreed but they didn't actually understand any of it! It's like they only absorbed it in a very superficial way; just enough to allow them to rephrase it or to add a few supporting points but somehow they really didn't actually understand the essence of the argument. This kind of situation reminds me of the wordcel vs shape rotator discussion from a few years back. NT people are like wordcels.
- deleted 1mo ago[deleted]
- grebc 1mo agoDavid Chase(the wonderful creator of The Sopranos) has said on more than one occasion that people don’t say what they mean. I think in your scenario that’s applying both ways.
- jongjong 1mo agoThis has been a theme for me over the past couple of years. I'm noticing the limitations of words and language, including those that come out of my own mouth. You can choose your words carefully, but it's useless unless your audience knows to look for those nuances. Sometimes, in group meetings, I've caught myself repeating something twice in a slightly different way to increase the probability that people understood it correctly. But you can't repeat yourself all the time or else people will think something's wrong with you.
- grebc 1mo ago
- rppz 1mo ago[flagged]
- Den_VR 1mo ago> Lost all respect instantly. Just imagine there’s a cult that tells everyone that you and people like you are a mistake that should have been killed or “fixed” in the womb. I maintain respect for the author, they have a good attitude in a grim reality.
- rppz 1mo agoIn my opinion, that’s just a victim mentality. There is a lot of suffering in this world. When you’re above average, like the author, you should be able to recognize that, put your own problems into perspective, and compare them to what’s happening around you. From there, the natural conclusion should be to stay quiet about it
- wyre 1mo ago>stay quiet about it what?? such an absolutely tone-deaf and privileged thing to say. just because there is suffering in the world means that the suffering that i and others experience isn't worth speaking out about? You do know that when people talk about their problems other people that have those same problems can relate to them, and it brings a sense of relief to both parties, right?
- spider-mario 1mo agoIt’s not the “natural conclusion” at all; it’s a fallacy of relative privation.
- sethammons 1mo agoYou lost respect for a person and their writing because they like their brain and how it works? How so? Why? What drove this comment? Zero karma account; did you create it just to shit on this person?
- 1mo ago
- effed3 1mo agoOh yes and probably the authors themselves have a related form on neuro-atypical-divergence know as neuro-tragically-compulsive-analisys disorder, related to a quite common social-accademic-pressure about being in control and classificate all things they do not have in control and that they do not clearly can relate with, causing a pathology, relatively benign, consisting in create pseudo-scientific-terms to apply to all those things, and disseminate it at large for their inner-related causal-impulse of saving all the world, and their social-satisfied ego. seriously (just a little): the world, the life, is way more various then all their philosopy.. live and let live is a good starting point for anything..
- TheGoddessInari 1mo agoAfter reading this several times, I've tried to identify if your satire is trying to meet the author's satire somewhere over the Atlantic, or if it's aimed at some kind of self-reference or in-joke that I'm just not parsing. It demonstrates the author's point from back in the 1990s so well, but also makes its own biting social commentary on how often authoritative-sounding language gets weaponized by a majority to dismiss and mock that which they fail to understand. Impressive level of historical continuity. The dryness nearly threw me.
- effed3 1mo agomaybe you are right, quite sure is all 3 things at the same time :) about something that, by my point of view, is -very- easy to understand, but, i know, ymmv. I feel that in this kind of matter, demonstrations (an others things) are in the eye of beholder, and a language that has a specific weight much greater than what it seeks to represent, set afloat in the sea of life, runs the risk of capsizing and sinking (feel free to laugh here). it's inevitable and i'm (partially) resigned to the implications it has on whole (modern) life, but anyone who wants to continue to pathologize vivisect and classify human experience is free to do so, but (for me) regarding life, true knowledge comes first over (presumed) academicism
- effed3 1mo ago[Following note]: If the author's satire is (as it may seem, and perhaps even understandable) in practice it perfectly overlaps with truly serious "studies" (including his own?) that are the true object of various reflections and some counter-satire, a bit mimetic, a bit casual. It is the true "author" behind the author, the excuse for another reflection: on something as mysterious as the human mind, countless theories can be invented, current therapies, schools, and fortunes can be built upon it, which may perhaps interest and even help someone (really?). But none seems to go beyond that, on something (diversity, strangeness, pain, and joy, and even madness) that in ancient times were the sign of the divine, of everything that goes beyond comprehension. Today, everything seems to be resolved by applying a "cure" to a more or less tailor-made "pathology," but this is a very narrow horizon within which we lock ourselves away from life and the mind, and it is easily abused and degraded in its socio-industrial theorizing and applications. Therefore, in my opinion, particularly regarding "preoccupation with social concerns, delusions of superiority, and obsession with conformity" (avoiding laughing, because maybe someone is genuinely worried), I believe that we need to put the spotlight on other things, such as society, culture, education, and inner growth, and the "pathologies" will be reduced to the minimum real number, on which to then elaborate a deeper reflection.
- _dain_ 1mo ago"What if I'm the normal one and the rest of society is wrong" This kind of framing-inversion might work as a coping mechanism to get you through some dark times as a spergy adolescent. But eventually you have to reconcile yourself to the reality of autism: it really is a neuro-developmental disorder and you actually do have deficits in social understanding, which you might be able to improve with deliberate effort. You have a lot stacked against you, but if you're well into adulthood and still stewing in this self-defeating resentment, that is a moral failing. The linked article is old so it pre-dates the "neurodivergence" idea, but the comments here are using it uncritically. "Neurodivergence" de facto just means "autistic and/or ADHD", usually with a particular kind of autistic taking a dominant role in discussions and advocacy. It has always been a political coalition (quite an esoteric one). But when you take ADHD on its own terms, the social-model extremism of "neurodiversity" advocates is particularly silly and harmful. ADHD people are perfectly happy with the disability-model; there clearly is something wrong with our brains, it's measurable with brain scans, and the symptoms can be improved with drugs. Don't tell me that ADHD is some equally-valid "attention orientation" or whatever social-model pretzel phrase you might come up with. As for autism: try telling someone with severe autism, someone who can't speak or clothe or feed themselves that what they are living with is just another perfectly valid neurotype. Try telling it to their caretakers. It's a risible luxury-belief enjoyed by autistics only slightly on the spectrum, and indulged by people who don't know better.
- spider-mario 1mo ago> "What if I'm the normal one and the rest of society is wrong" You do realise they’re not saying that in earnest, right? The point is to demonstrate the absurdity of it. > But eventually you have to reconcile yourself to the reality of autism: it really is a neuro-developmental disorder and you actually do have deficits in social understanding, which you might be able to improve with deliberate effort. The reality is that what you just wrote is just as true in the non-autistic → autistic direction (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1362361320919286 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1362361320919286). Blaming one side for this bidirectional mismatch is not a universal truth. https://neuroqueer.com/throw-away-the-masters-tools/ https://neuroqueer.com/throw-away-the-masters-tools/ “If we start from the assumption that neurotypicals are ‘normal,’ and Autistics are ‘disordered,’ then poor connections between neurotypicals and Autistics inevitably get blamed on some ‘defect’ or ‘deficit’ in Autistics. If an Autistic can’t understand a neurotypical, it’s because Autistics have empathy deficits and impaired communication skills; if a neurotypical can’t understand an Autistic, it’s because Autistics have empathy deficits and poor communication skills. All the frictions and failures of connection between the two groups, and all the difficulties Autistics run into in neurotypical society, all get blamed on Autism. But when our vision is no longer clouded by the illusion of ‘normal,’ we can recognize this double standard for what it is, recognize it as just another manifestation of the sort of privilege and power that dominant majorities so often wield over minorities of any sort.” > As for autism: try telling someone with severe autism, someone who can't speak or clothe or feed themselves that what they are living with is just another perfectly valid neurotype. As for womanhood: try telling someone with severe endometriosis or menstrual pain that what they are living with is just another perfectly valid gender.
- glimshe 1mo agoBeing somewhat odd is normal.
- effed3 1mo agoagree, as being normal is somewath odd.
- znpy 1mo ago"tragically, 9625 out of 10'000 don't have issues" is it only me or this sounds crazy evil?
- spider-mario 1mo agoThe point is to parody the pathologisation of cognitive functioning that differs from the societal norm (see: “neuronormativity”). You’re just reasserting that pathologisation.
- morkalork 1mo agoIf peoples' attributes exist on a normal distribution and you keep coming up with new attributes to measure, eventually everyone will have at least one extreme attribute..
- pojzon 1mo agoAs an autistic person that has issues with understanding other ppls “feelings” - Yes, you are labeled as deficient. But… I can always make better decisions, coldly calculate pros and cons, dont let feelings take better of me. Im much better at anything I do than your average person. Example I started carpenting work, became better at it in few weeks than my teacher that does it for 20 years (his words). Can start doing something new and become really good at it very fast. In a logical sense - Im much much better than any average normal person at anything. But Im deficient, because I have issues socializing or understanding ppl behaviour. Ps. I talk straight from heart, coz I see no value in lying. Ps2. I also strongly believe, ppl like me are the next evolution step for humans. Overdependance on feelings and first guesses is very detrimental for us as a spieces.
- optionalsquid 1mo agoThere is no "next step" in evolution, nor any concern for what is or is not "detrimental for us as a spieces". Evolution is much simpler, at its core: Is autism heritable and do autistic people leave behind more viable offspring than the non-autistic? Then the proportion of autistic people can be expected to grow, otherwise it most likely won't
- dwaltrip 1mo agoIs your ability to acquire new skills easily related to autism? At the end of the day, does it matter? I have ADHD and I've found peace in trying not to assign precise moral value to different characteristics that I have. Easier said than done, of course…
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 1mo agoHow many out of every 10k _bloggers_, or even blog readers, are neurotypical
- childintime 1mo agoOr even HN commenters?