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You might think. The UK would be the most prominent example and in fact has been a much more predictable and consistent trading and negotiating partner than the

by biorach 2mo ago

You might think. The UK would be the most prominent example and in fact has been a much more predictable and consistent trading and negotiating partner than the USA

philipallstar 2mo ago
The UK hasn't really changed, regardless of who's in charge, in 20 years. Because it's mostly run by the state and not by the politicians.
- Symbiote 2mo ago
  In case you hadn't noticed, within the last 20 years the UK made an enormous constitutional change by leaving the EU.
  - classified 2mo ago
    But no government has reversed that step.
    - vrganj 2mo ago
      Yeah but that step itself was a dramatic change within said 20 year timeframe
      - imightbebatman 2mo ago
        You've probably noticed, people like this like to adjust the goalposts.
  - philipallstar 2mo ago
    That is the one change, and it hasn't resulted in the thing people actually were voting for (but couldn't): less immigration. Because the state says we must just import 750k people a year, so that's that.
  - mrkstu 2mo ago
    Made by the people rather than the politicians- the mainline politicians all thought it would/wanted it to fail- they just thought they’d get a boost from catering to a disaffected minority.
- tyrabound 2mo ago
  You didn’t say it and it may not occur to you, but you are correct, the UK is among the many sham democracies, which is arguably the primary objective of “democracies”; an illusion supported by a concept called choice supportive bias, i.e., if you believe the outcome of something was due to your own action, choice, or agency you’re prone to accept it, defend it, not question it, and ignore its detrimental effects. It’s a rather diabolical form of control, democracy. “You have fake choices and you like … nay, you love what you choose”, quite literally. You have to love it, because you have to believe it’s true. And that’s where they latched onto your mind. It’s quite ingeniou.
mschuster91 2mo ago
> The UK would be the most prominent example and in fact has been a much more predictable and consistent trading and negotiating partner than the USA European here: Oh hell no. The Brexit breakup drama was years of chaos with each of the braindead Prime Ministers somehow managing to make things worse.
- benj111 2mo ago
  It still is. We still aren't doing border checks on EU imports. Still, Boris Johnson wasn't as bad as Trump.
- Normal_gaussian 2mo ago
  That's quite a take. The EU-UK negotiations were mired in issues of EU maximalism; attempting to force each PM to agree a worse deal knowing not agreeing to it would cause short term pain for that PMs political situation. Its quite the thing that the UK managed to hold on as much as it did. The UK was on the back foot in all negotiations having been forced into the Brexit outcome. For all the nonsense printed in the UK and Continental presses, the UK had a surprisingly consistent position through the entire thing with clear threads of staff and policies still running to today.
  - benj111 2mo ago
    What? "Forced into the Brexit outcome" Cameron stepped down after he shat the bed, every PM was a Tory. And yeah, the position was consistent. Before it was 'we could have all the benefits of being in the EU, with none of the down sides'. We could have soft Brexit, or the less popular hard Brexit. Teresa Mays position was "Brexit means Brexit" and non of the others had a clue either. Because they promised everything to everyone. In the event we got a harder Brexit than the hardest Brexit discussed before the vote. So if you want to say the UK was consistent, I say fuck you to the civil servants that consistently ignored the conversation prior to the vote.
  - vrganj 2mo ago
    The EU position was consistent from even before the referendum: Either in or out of the single market, no cherry picking. Each PM in the UK's neverending parade gained power by telling their electorate "I have this genius plan that'll totally let us cherry pick" only to be deflated when the EU held to its clearly stated position. The problem with Brexit was that the Brits wanted something that was never on the table, they voted for Brexit under false pretenses and then got mad when they couldn't get what they wanted.

by biorach 2mo ago

You might think. The UK would be the most prominent example and in fact has been a much more predictable and consistent trading and negotiating partner than the USA

philipallstar 2mo ago

The UK hasn't really changed, regardless of who's in charge, in 20 years. Because it's mostly run by the state and not by the politicians.

Symbiote 2mo ago
In case you hadn't noticed, within the last 20 years the UK made an enormous constitutional change by leaving the EU.
- classified 2mo ago
  But no government has reversed that step.
  - vrganj 2mo ago
    Yeah but that step itself was a dramatic change within said 20 year timeframe
    - imightbebatman 2mo ago
      You've probably noticed, people like this like to adjust the goalposts.
- philipallstar 2mo ago
  That is the one change, and it hasn't resulted in the thing people actually were voting for (but couldn't): less immigration. Because the state says we must just import 750k people a year, so that's that.
- mrkstu 2mo ago
  Made by the people rather than the politicians- the mainline politicians all thought it would/wanted it to fail- they just thought they’d get a boost from catering to a disaffected minority.
tyrabound 2mo ago
You didn’t say it and it may not occur to you, but you are correct, the UK is among the many sham democracies, which is arguably the primary objective of “democracies”; an illusion supported by a concept called choice supportive bias, i.e., if you believe the outcome of something was due to your own action, choice, or agency you’re prone to accept it, defend it, not question it, and ignore its detrimental effects. It’s a rather diabolical form of control, democracy. “You have fake choices and you like … nay, you love what you choose”, quite literally. You have to love it, because you have to believe it’s true. And that’s where they latched onto your mind. It’s quite ingeniou.

mschuster91 2mo ago

> The UK would be the most prominent example and in fact has been a much more predictable and consistent trading and negotiating partner than the USA European here: Oh hell no. The Brexit breakup drama was years of chaos with each of the braindead Prime Ministers somehow managing to make things worse.

benj111 2mo ago
It still is. We still aren't doing border checks on EU imports. Still, Boris Johnson wasn't as bad as Trump.
Normal_gaussian 2mo ago
That's quite a take. The EU-UK negotiations were mired in issues of EU maximalism; attempting to force each PM to agree a worse deal knowing not agreeing to it would cause short term pain for that PMs political situation. Its quite the thing that the UK managed to hold on as much as it did. The UK was on the back foot in all negotiations having been forced into the Brexit outcome. For all the nonsense printed in the UK and Continental presses, the UK had a surprisingly consistent position through the entire thing with clear threads of staff and policies still running to today.
- benj111 2mo ago
  What? "Forced into the Brexit outcome" Cameron stepped down after he shat the bed, every PM was a Tory. And yeah, the position was consistent. Before it was 'we could have all the benefits of being in the EU, with none of the down sides'. We could have soft Brexit, or the less popular hard Brexit. Teresa Mays position was "Brexit means Brexit" and non of the others had a clue either. Because they promised everything to everyone. In the event we got a harder Brexit than the hardest Brexit discussed before the vote. So if you want to say the UK was consistent, I say fuck you to the civil servants that consistently ignored the conversation prior to the vote.
- vrganj 2mo ago
  The EU position was consistent from even before the referendum: Either in or out of the single market, no cherry picking. Each PM in the UK's neverending parade gained power by telling their electorate "I have this genius plan that'll totally let us cherry pick" only to be deflated when the EU held to its clearly stated position. The problem with Brexit was that the Brits wanted something that was never on the table, they voted for Brexit under false pretenses and then got mad when they couldn't get what they wanted.