4 ms·

I highly recommend feeding all your proprietary data and confidential personal information into this model as quickly as possible. What could possibly go wrong?

I highly recommend feeding all your proprietary data and confidential personal information into this model as quickly as possible. What could possibly go wrong?! In terms of equivalence of suspicion, this is the external inference provider equivalent of getting free steak that was smuggled out of a grocery store inside somebody's pants.

arcanemachiner 2mo ago
All of my non-work AI coding is that open-source, so I'm happy to feed my data into the machine. It's a win for me: my code goes into the training data, and my sessions are fed into future training data, making the model stronger at the type of work I do.
- Fnoord 2mo ago
  What about retaining or defending your license/copyright?
  - walrus01 2mo ago
    If people are putting, for instance, GPL licensed open source software into mainland CN run inference providers I don't think they are putting much thought into the fact that CN software developers don't consider themselves bound to keep future derivatives or work built on it also GPL licensed. Nor is there really any realistic chance for legal recourse in event of violation.
    - Fnoord 2mo ago
      Yeah, I get that. Any IP going through China might be hot tho; if you end up using it in a product, and your competitor's lawyers have a look at it, you might end up with your company/product getting destroyed. I guess we should treat AI the same as China in that regard (if living in 'the West') In the meantime, AI companies ignore licenses and scrape as they see fit. Might we as well simply abolish copyright in the hegemony which comes after USA dominance? I don't know, but I do know China won't enforce it on their end. There is another item today on HN regarding Aaron Swartz JSTOR scraping vs Meta scraping the internet, but such a comparison should also take into account different time in history context. Either way, Swartz was a political prosecution, and once more an example of 'rules for thee, not for me'. Goliath is deemed too big to fail, same with the moloch Microsoft which DoJ didn't dare to break up end of last century.
cleaning 2mo ago
Not much would go wrong.
dghlsakjg 2mo ago
There are low stakes use cases where this kind of stuff just doesn’t matter. Not every use case for an LLM involves sensitive or even non public data. Eg. I have a need to search transcripts of published recordings to extract entities for tagging purposes, find semantic shifts for chapters and other things. The underlying content is already published. If they want to train on my prompts, that was something they could have done with no issue and minimal effort anyway. Sometimes you don’t need to care why the steak is free.
- paradox460 2mo ago
  I've found capable models are incredibly useful for fixing up old ebooks. The kind that were text documents OCRd off a paperback and then dumped in word and bodged into an epub The ones that have all sorts of ocr artifacts, weird capitalization, and virtually no css Ran a bunch of older sci-fi through some earlier and it fixes them up very well
  - dash2 2mo ago
    What if you OCR an old ebook of Chinese political history under communism?
    - CookieCrisp 2mo ago
      Good god man, get a grip
jstummbillig 2mo ago
> I highly recommend feeding all your proprietary data and confidential personal information into this model as quickly as possible. What could possibly go wrong?! What is special about this model? The model's provider is not anonymous. OpenRouter knows who it is (and apparently decided that, in whatever way they always do it, it is okay to work with them). Using this seems roughly equivalent to using any model through OpenRouter, as far as I can tell. Or is this just meta-critique?
tokioyoyo 2mo ago
We’re about a year and a half past this conversation. The industry has settled on “Don’t use it for work, unless your company is okay with whatever models. Everything else is whatever, super-majority really does not care at this point.”.
Aurornis 2mo ago
I'm kind of fascinated by how many of the same audiences who are highly skeptical of OpenAI and Anthropic are the same people running straight to other country's models. The most oft-repeated rebuttal I've heard is that they don't care what other government know about them. I guess their threat model hasn't considered any privacy issues, data mining, or leakage risks, just the possibility of the federal government doing something to them?
- nolist_policy 2mo ago
  Everyone trains on your data. With Chinese providers at least I'm getting a open weight model out of it.
  - usef- 2mo ago
    That's very defeatist. Do you have any concrete reason to think the major providers are lying to every one of their business/API customers about not training or storing the data? The business loss of trust would outweigh any benefits of the data. (And if they freely lie about such things, I don't know why they would bother taking the PR hit when they announced fable had temporary data retention for their abuse prevention)
    - nolist_policy 2mo ago
      AI labs are limited by the available training data, the best way to improve model performance is more and better training data. The AI labs and the downstream companies that sell training data to them vacuum up everything they can. Illegal residential proxies (botnets) that once have been used by hackers and scammers are now used to vacuum up the Internet. They are now vacuuming up antique books that are practically useless.[1] In face of this is is unthinkable to me that they are not training on API data. > The business loss of trust would outweigh any benefits of the data. The loss of trust is already here. I know of one German company that uses AI only in areas where they have to compete with (foreign) startups. For their core business and everything else they are waiting for an on-prem solution. Apparently Microsoft can provide on-prem GPT-5. [1] https://lesekauz.de/forum/thread/1999-sammelbestellungen-von-zoombooks-c-o-prepfort-usa-%C3%BCber-abebooks/ https://lesekauz.de/forum/thread/1999-sammelbestellungen-von...
self_awareness 2mo ago
You say it like it's less dumb to feed this kind of data to other EU or US models.
makingstuffs 2mo ago
I don’t understand this mentality which I see over and over again on here. It’s not like the US frontier labs are beacons of morality and transparency. It’s also pretty accepted within this community that a lot of data fed to US tech companies ends up with the Israeli government. Meanwhile the current US government headed by Donny Tango has done a very thorough job of proving itself to be about as predictable and dependable as a rabid dog on crack. Throughout the events which have transpired since a certain orange charlatan took office it is objectively true that the Chinese government has portrayed itself as a much more stable and sane entity. We really need to stop this elitism and recognise the reality.
- maxdo 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - jdiaz97 2mo ago
    it's not China that is protecting the Epstein class btw
    - no-name-here 2mo ago
      1. In the US on that item, it's ~50/50 or whatever. 2. In China, aren't even the biggest business leaders, the most famous celebrities, etc. simply "disappeared" if they won't support the party-line? Or even being "disappeared" for something like accusing a former vice-premier of sexual assault? For example, the BBC headline/article "Why do Chinese billionaires keep vanishing?"
      - jdiaz97 2mo ago
        is that your metric for china bad, billionaires disappearing?
        no-name-here 2mo ago
        1. I'm generally against any countries "disappearing" anyone, including western countries - and my parent comment explicitly said that it happened to more than just billionaires - famous artists and actors were also disappeared, and the person I mentioned being disappeared for accusing an official of sexual assault was a top female athlete. 2. But if a country is willing to regularly "disappear" the highest profile members of society, they probably are not going to be too concerned about "disappearing" significantly larger groups of ordinary people, poor people, etc. who are willing to verbally disagree with the government, agreed? Or who are an ethnic minority like the Uyghurs. 3. I don't understand your "china bad" comment though - if the US was disappearing billionaires (or celebs/artists/athletes or whomever) if they wouldn't agree with Trump, would you have similarly said "is that your metric for 'america bad', disappearing people for not agreeing with the government?"?
glub 2mo ago
Just a few years ago, people would lose their marbles if some software installed a background agent to send you notifications or something. Now we agreed that it's totally normal to have software that does remote code execution on our machines, for which it first has to transfer all data to a remote server. We've already normalized this. It doesn't really matter who gets access to said machine/data - they will all retain information, and they will all train on it, regardless of what user agreement sais. It's not like OpenAI and Anthropic didn't train on things they didn't have permission to train on.
- tw1984 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - KronisLV 2mo ago
    > loser mindset. You can disagree without that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html At the same time, I will also be the first one to admit that I don't have like 20-50k EUR laying around for the hardware to run inference fast enough on good models. Hell, even an RTX 5060 Ti 16 GB is at least 700 EUR (820 USD) right now over here, so regular consumers are also screwed, same with RAM prices and storage prices. Absolutely insane time to buy hardware.
  - glub 2mo ago
    You're making a lot of assumptions, projecting, maybe? I do have dedicated machines and dedicated VMs for agents. RCE on a VM is still a RCE.
    - tw1984 2mo ago
      as already suggested, buy and host your own inference system. just own both side of such "RCE". make sure you audit and use open source software for the entire stack. you are just complaining on something that can be totally safeguarded. yes, it won't be cheap, it require a lot of work, welcome to the capitalist world. loser mindset.
lukewarm707 2mo ago
ironically this model is zero data retention on opencode, which is more private than the lowest retention offered by openai, google, or anthropic on their consumer plans.

arcanemachiner 2mo ago

All of my non-work AI coding is that open-source, so I'm happy to feed my data into the machine. It's a win for me: my code goes into the training data, and my sessions are fed into future training data, making the model stronger at the type of work I do.

Fnoord 2mo ago
What about retaining or defending your license/copyright?
- walrus01 2mo ago
  If people are putting, for instance, GPL licensed open source software into mainland CN run inference providers I don't think they are putting much thought into the fact that CN software developers don't consider themselves bound to keep future derivatives or work built on it also GPL licensed. Nor is there really any realistic chance for legal recourse in event of violation.
  - Fnoord 2mo ago
    Yeah, I get that. Any IP going through China might be hot tho; if you end up using it in a product, and your competitor's lawyers have a look at it, you might end up with your company/product getting destroyed. I guess we should treat AI the same as China in that regard (if living in 'the West') In the meantime, AI companies ignore licenses and scrape as they see fit. Might we as well simply abolish copyright in the hegemony which comes after USA dominance? I don't know, but I do know China won't enforce it on their end. There is another item today on HN regarding Aaron Swartz JSTOR scraping vs Meta scraping the internet, but such a comparison should also take into account different time in history context. Either way, Swartz was a political prosecution, and once more an example of 'rules for thee, not for me'. Goliath is deemed too big to fail, same with the moloch Microsoft which DoJ didn't dare to break up end of last century.

cleaning 2mo ago

Not much would go wrong.

dghlsakjg 2mo ago

There are low stakes use cases where this kind of stuff just doesn’t matter. Not every use case for an LLM involves sensitive or even non public data. Eg. I have a need to search transcripts of published recordings to extract entities for tagging purposes, find semantic shifts for chapters and other things. The underlying content is already published. If they want to train on my prompts, that was something they could have done with no issue and minimal effort anyway. Sometimes you don’t need to care why the steak is free.

paradox460 2mo ago
I've found capable models are incredibly useful for fixing up old ebooks. The kind that were text documents OCRd off a paperback and then dumped in word and bodged into an epub The ones that have all sorts of ocr artifacts, weird capitalization, and virtually no css Ran a bunch of older sci-fi through some earlier and it fixes them up very well
- dash2 2mo ago
  What if you OCR an old ebook of Chinese political history under communism?
  - CookieCrisp 2mo ago
    Good god man, get a grip

jstummbillig 2mo ago

> I highly recommend feeding all your proprietary data and confidential personal information into this model as quickly as possible. What could possibly go wrong?! What is special about this model? The model's provider is not anonymous. OpenRouter knows who it is (and apparently decided that, in whatever way they always do it, it is okay to work with them). Using this seems roughly equivalent to using any model through OpenRouter, as far as I can tell. Or is this just meta-critique?

tokioyoyo 2mo ago

We’re about a year and a half past this conversation. The industry has settled on “Don’t use it for work, unless your company is okay with whatever models. Everything else is whatever, super-majority really does not care at this point.”.

Aurornis 2mo ago

I'm kind of fascinated by how many of the same audiences who are highly skeptical of OpenAI and Anthropic are the same people running straight to other country's models. The most oft-repeated rebuttal I've heard is that they don't care what other government know about them. I guess their threat model hasn't considered any privacy issues, data mining, or leakage risks, just the possibility of the federal government doing something to them?

nolist_policy 2mo ago
Everyone trains on your data. With Chinese providers at least I'm getting a open weight model out of it.
- usef- 2mo ago
  That's very defeatist. Do you have any concrete reason to think the major providers are lying to every one of their business/API customers about not training or storing the data? The business loss of trust would outweigh any benefits of the data. (And if they freely lie about such things, I don't know why they would bother taking the PR hit when they announced fable had temporary data retention for their abuse prevention)
  - nolist_policy 2mo ago
    AI labs are limited by the available training data, the best way to improve model performance is more and better training data. The AI labs and the downstream companies that sell training data to them vacuum up everything they can. Illegal residential proxies (botnets) that once have been used by hackers and scammers are now used to vacuum up the Internet. They are now vacuuming up antique books that are practically useless.[1] In face of this is is unthinkable to me that they are not training on API data. > The business loss of trust would outweigh any benefits of the data. The loss of trust is already here. I know of one German company that uses AI only in areas where they have to compete with (foreign) startups. For their core business and everything else they are waiting for an on-prem solution. Apparently Microsoft can provide on-prem GPT-5. [1] https://lesekauz.de/forum/thread/1999-sammelbestellungen-von-zoombooks-c-o-prepfort-usa-%C3%BCber-abebooks/ https://lesekauz.de/forum/thread/1999-sammelbestellungen-von...

self_awareness 2mo ago

You say it like it's less dumb to feed this kind of data to other EU or US models.

makingstuffs 2mo ago

I don’t understand this mentality which I see over and over again on here. It’s not like the US frontier labs are beacons of morality and transparency. It’s also pretty accepted within this community that a lot of data fed to US tech companies ends up with the Israeli government. Meanwhile the current US government headed by Donny Tango has done a very thorough job of proving itself to be about as predictable and dependable as a rabid dog on crack. Throughout the events which have transpired since a certain orange charlatan took office it is objectively true that the Chinese government has portrayed itself as a much more stable and sane entity. We really need to stop this elitism and recognise the reality.

maxdo 2mo ago
[flagged]
- jdiaz97 2mo ago
  it's not China that is protecting the Epstein class btw
  - no-name-here 2mo ago
    1. In the US on that item, it's ~50/50 or whatever. 2. In China, aren't even the biggest business leaders, the most famous celebrities, etc. simply "disappeared" if they won't support the party-line? Or even being "disappeared" for something like accusing a former vice-premier of sexual assault? For example, the BBC headline/article "Why do Chinese billionaires keep vanishing?"
    - jdiaz97 2mo ago
      is that your metric for china bad, billionaires disappearing?
      - no-name-here 2mo ago
        1. I'm generally against any countries "disappearing" anyone, including western countries - and my parent comment explicitly said that it happened to more than just billionaires - famous artists and actors were also disappeared, and the person I mentioned being disappeared for accusing an official of sexual assault was a top female athlete. 2. But if a country is willing to regularly "disappear" the highest profile members of society, they probably are not going to be too concerned about "disappearing" significantly larger groups of ordinary people, poor people, etc. who are willing to verbally disagree with the government, agreed? Or who are an ethnic minority like the Uyghurs. 3. I don't understand your "china bad" comment though - if the US was disappearing billionaires (or celebs/artists/athletes or whomever) if they wouldn't agree with Trump, would you have similarly said "is that your metric for 'america bad', disappearing people for not agreeing with the government?"?

glub 2mo ago

Just a few years ago, people would lose their marbles if some software installed a background agent to send you notifications or something. Now we agreed that it's totally normal to have software that does remote code execution on our machines, for which it first has to transfer all data to a remote server. We've already normalized this. It doesn't really matter who gets access to said machine/data - they will all retain information, and they will all train on it, regardless of what user agreement sais. It's not like OpenAI and Anthropic didn't train on things they didn't have permission to train on.

tw1984 2mo ago
[flagged]
- KronisLV 2mo ago
  > loser mindset. You can disagree without that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html At the same time, I will also be the first one to admit that I don't have like 20-50k EUR laying around for the hardware to run inference fast enough on good models. Hell, even an RTX 5060 Ti 16 GB is at least 700 EUR (820 USD) right now over here, so regular consumers are also screwed, same with RAM prices and storage prices. Absolutely insane time to buy hardware.
- glub 2mo ago
  You're making a lot of assumptions, projecting, maybe? I do have dedicated machines and dedicated VMs for agents. RCE on a VM is still a RCE.
  - tw1984 2mo ago
    as already suggested, buy and host your own inference system. just own both side of such "RCE". make sure you audit and use open source software for the entire stack. you are just complaining on something that can be totally safeguarded. yes, it won't be cheap, it require a lot of work, welcome to the capitalist world. loser mindset.

lukewarm707 2mo ago

ironically this model is zero data retention on opencode, which is more private than the lowest retention offered by openai, google, or anthropic on their consumer plans.