11 ms·

Anyone can buy a table saw. Doesn't make you a carpenter and it doesn't mean you can/should build anything.

by camgunz 2mo ago

tptacek 2mo ago
In case you yourself do not own a table saw, I should point out that table saws don't rip, cut, or mill stock for you. It's like saying "buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter".
- Avicebron 2mo ago
  At what point does whacking something together yourself with a hammer make you a carpenter? You would think that even with carpentry there is a spectrum from ignorant rube to master craftsman. If you fire and forget a LLM agent at a problem, where does that land you on the spectrum?
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    It doesn't, it's just that people keep making comparisons between AI and basic tools of specific trades, but none of those tools work the way AI does. (I mean, I guess as soon as you start whacking things together with a hammer, you technically sort of are being a carpenter, but that's not the point.)
    - fc417fc802 2mo ago
      Tools can be more or less automated. Using a CNC for example doesn't necessarily mean that I qualify as an aspiring machinist. Similar to AI a CNC happily carries out a course of action largely independent of the operator. I think whacking things together with a hammer is the act of building (however inexpertly) whereas carpenter (and other titles) convey something about expertise, mindset, or the intent to hone skills. The DIYer might or might not qualify as an amateur carpenter/electrician/plumber/whatever.
      - tptacek 2mo ago
        So far the closest analogy I've come up with to coding agents is a 3D printer. Captures the amount of effort and the quality of the outputs.
- tomwheeler 2mo ago
  Or, in the words of Morris Day, "It takes more than a hat to call yourself a chef." More people have the capability now, but not necessarily the experience or understanding.
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    The hat : chef analogy is even less apposite than the table saw! At least the table saw serves an important function in that trade.
    - cuttysnark 2mo ago
      Culinary hats serve the important purpose of helping catch stray hairs, not unlike a hairnet.
      - tptacek 2mo ago
        Walk into a fine dining restaurant kitchen and count the number of chefs hats you see.
  - b112 2mo ago
    Capability? I have to push back on that (AI sounding joke, yes). Point is, if I give a person a calculator, it doesn't even make them the tiniest bit of a mathematician. Nor if I give them a pencil, either. The tool never, ever makes the tradesperson. Whatever's happening with LLMs, it's not making people programmers. It's how you use the tool, which validates that.
    - tptacek 2mo ago
      Wait: a calculator doesn't make you a mathematician because you have to know math to get the calculator to do anything. A pencil does even less for you. You can't say any of that about AI.
      - b112 2mo ago
- stackghost 2mo ago
  >Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I think it's pretty obvious what parent poster was implying. Pedantic nitpicks add nothing to the discussion. edit: sigh, fucking rate limits are such a dumb mechanic if you want quality long-form discussion. By the time I can reply nobody will be looking at their replies. anyways LLMs might displace "programmers" in the way that 3D CAD software replaced draftsmen, but software engineering, the actual design and architecture skill, isn't going anywhere. I can use carpentry tools to build a bridge over a creek but I'm not qualified to build a bridge carrying Interstate traffic.
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    It is obvious what the parent poster is saying, and it's substantively wrong. Give someone a table saw and they're essentially no closer to being a woodworker. It's tricky to use a table saw (trickier still to use it safely). These tool analogies are self-soothing for programmers who see agents is simple tools of their trade. But the point of articles like this is that AI agents are more like spreadsheets --- only more so. They're devices that allow normal people without training or aptitude to do things with computers that only programmers were doing before. They displace programmers. In that sense, the closest physical analogy to a coding agent is probably a 3D printer. But: a really good 3D printer, into which hundreds of billions of dollars had been invested entirely for the purpose of making the printer work weirdly well even for people who have no interest in the different kidns of filament spools.
    - camgunz 2mo ago
      My thing got a little heat but I didn't see for a couple days, so I thought I'd just let it stand. But it's late and I'm reading through my old comments and, while it's necro, thought I'd do a reply here. I'm more than OK with people writing their own software, indeed the main thing I like about the free software movement is that it makes it much easier for people to do that. It's empowering. I don't have a 3D printer, but I like the idea. I think people should be able to build as much of their own stuff as they want. I have a caveat though, which I'll get to at the end. As far as my personal motivation, I--and most SWEs I know--don't really want to build the kinds of things people are using LLMs to build: audio players, billing software, whatever. I also don't think most backend apps, frontend apps, web frameworks, whatever should exist, and whether they were written by people or LLMs doesn't really factor in. More to the point, I think it's crazy that SWEs and tech workers generally make 8474x what other people make, and I think we've provided dubious value for that remittance, to say nothing of the investment, so knocking us down a peg would be putting things to rights. But, candidly, while I wouldn't love losing my job because of LLMs, I don't think that's happening writ large and I don't think it will happen to me specifically, at least not directly or any time soon. Maybe it matters to you that I don't make beaucoup bucks, maybe it doesn't. Anyway, do with all that what you will. Kara Swisher has this great line--dunno if it's originally hers--where some social media person is going on about citizen journalists opening up news and how great it is, and she says that makes about as much sense as citizen surgeons. In the same vein, I don't think a person unaccustomed to designing complex systems should try, just like I don't think someone inexperienced at building a house or a car or a plane should try. I still think this even if we have a one-button mystery machine that play-doh's out an object that seems like it may actually fly a couple of people one town over, and even usually safely does. I think we oughta slap a huge fucking label on the side of that machine that says "we have no idea how this works, and we vouch for it not at all" (I've not yet been goaded into reading the ToS for OpenAI or Anthropic, thank Dark Lord Satan, but I would put $5 down that they assume no liability for anything their models do). So my caveat, and the point of my post, curtly and regrettably expressed via analogy, is that people should feel free to build whatever they want, but they shouldn't build anything they'll seriously rely on. They won't know enough to verify that whatever they build is fit for purpose (and, sweet Satan give me strength, you can't just ask the LLM to verify it for you). Only experts can do that. Also for color, I do own a table saw, as well as some others, which I used very (very, holy shit) unsafely to do a terrible finishing carpentry job on my house and some other odd jobs. My warning to all readers is Google how table saws can fuck you up, and do not ever stand behind the wood you are sawing because the blade can literally shoot it into you, or IDK at least shoot it at you really fast.
- santadays 2mo ago
  In case anyone missed it, tptacek is saying that ai is different than just a tool. Tool analogies are not good. A better analogy is, now you have what seems like an increasingly intelligent personal assistant that can do any cognitive work that you ask it to do, to increasingly better result, has retrograde amnesia, no accountability, entirely middle of the road morality, access to the internet... eh this isn't really a good analogy either.
  - EA-3167 2mo ago
    Don't forget that when you're using it in your own domain you can at least catch its many mistakes and hallucinations, but "Citizen Devs" aren't going to have a knowledge base to do that.
    - tptacek 2mo ago
      I often wonder whether computer programmer said these kinds of things about spreadsheets, and how mere office workers would never have the knowledge base to build serious programs with them. Remember, before Visicalc, every spreadsheet was a program built by a computer programmer.
- rascul 2mo ago
  > table saws don't rip, cut, or mill stock They actually do all of that
  - santadays 2mo ago
    you missed the "for you"
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    Not for you! You have to actually know how to do that, and physically push the stock through the blade. If you know zero about a table saw, you're more likely to turn a piece of wood into a projectile than to cross-cut it accurately. Again: not something you can say about a coding agent.
    - rascul 2mo ago
      The saw does them for you but it doesn't operate itself. Perhaps I read it too literally.
- miyoji 2mo ago
  Owning a slave that does all those things still doesn't make you a carpenter.
7bit 2mo ago
The first step in becoming a carpenter is to become a bad carpenter.
- arionhardison 2mo ago
  I cannot disagree here in theory; but to say that: "The first step to become a doctor is NOT to be a bad doctor, its to go to medical school"
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - pixl97 2mo ago
    Bomb squad technician seems more pertinent here.
  - 7bit 2mo ago
    Doctors different mate. There a shit ton of people who just bought a table saw and now are good carpenters. The claim I responded to was nothing but weak elitist gatekeeping. Such people should think really hard why they are how they are. It's ob obnoxious.
    - kraken_cult 2mo ago
      Remember "Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers". There's a reason they go together..
      - stackghost 2mo ago
        >There's a reason they go together.. They're all self-regulating professions with licensing bodies and professional standards?
    - arionhardison 2mo ago
      Agreed, and I in no way meant to be pedantic. I think I did a bad job of articulating point of - where do we draw the line? How many tables did the "people who just bought a table saw" sell before they were "good carpenters". With AI, there are lots of people who think they are "good carpenters". Here in the US; the head of HHS and DOD decided that flu vaccines were no longer mandatory; until the flu exploded on military bases. I am not taking a position here because I genuinely do not know what the answer to this is but I do think it is as important as it is interesting. I many ways I think AI amplifies the "The Dunning-Kruger" by an order of magnitude; I think this could be one of the defining issue of our time.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
rascul 2mo ago
I'd recommend a battery powered circular saw instead of a table saw to get started.

Anyone can buy a table saw. Doesn't make you a carpenter and it doesn't mean you can/should build anything.

by camgunz 2mo ago

Anyone can buy a table saw. Doesn't make you a carpenter and it doesn't mean you can/should build anything.

In case you yourself do not own a table saw, I should point out that table saws don't rip, cut, or mill stock for you. It's like saying "buying a hammer doesn't make you a carpenter".

Avicebron 2mo ago
At what point does whacking something together yourself with a hammer make you a carpenter? You would think that even with carpentry there is a spectrum from ignorant rube to master craftsman. If you fire and forget a LLM agent at a problem, where does that land you on the spectrum?
- tptacek 2mo ago
  It doesn't, it's just that people keep making comparisons between AI and basic tools of specific trades, but none of those tools work the way AI does. (I mean, I guess as soon as you start whacking things together with a hammer, you technically sort of are being a carpenter, but that's not the point.)
  - fc417fc802 2mo ago
    Tools can be more or less automated. Using a CNC for example doesn't necessarily mean that I qualify as an aspiring machinist. Similar to AI a CNC happily carries out a course of action largely independent of the operator. I think whacking things together with a hammer is the act of building (however inexpertly) whereas carpenter (and other titles) convey something about expertise, mindset, or the intent to hone skills. The DIYer might or might not qualify as an amateur carpenter/electrician/plumber/whatever.
    - tptacek 2mo ago
      So far the closest analogy I've come up with to coding agents is a 3D printer. Captures the amount of effort and the quality of the outputs.
tomwheeler 2mo ago
Or, in the words of Morris Day, "It takes more than a hat to call yourself a chef." More people have the capability now, but not necessarily the experience or understanding.
- tptacek 2mo ago
  The hat : chef analogy is even less apposite than the table saw! At least the table saw serves an important function in that trade.
  - cuttysnark 2mo ago
    Culinary hats serve the important purpose of helping catch stray hairs, not unlike a hairnet.
    - tptacek 2mo ago
      Walk into a fine dining restaurant kitchen and count the number of chefs hats you see.
- b112 2mo ago
  Capability? I have to push back on that (AI sounding joke, yes). Point is, if I give a person a calculator, it doesn't even make them the tiniest bit of a mathematician. Nor if I give them a pencil, either. The tool never, ever makes the tradesperson. Whatever's happening with LLMs, it's not making people programmers. It's how you use the tool, which validates that.
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    Wait: a calculator doesn't make you a mathematician because you have to know math to get the calculator to do anything. A pencil does even less for you. You can't say any of that about AI.
    - b112 2mo ago
stackghost 2mo ago
>Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html I think it's pretty obvious what parent poster was implying. Pedantic nitpicks add nothing to the discussion. edit: sigh, fucking rate limits are such a dumb mechanic if you want quality long-form discussion. By the time I can reply nobody will be looking at their replies. anyways LLMs might displace "programmers" in the way that 3D CAD software replaced draftsmen, but software engineering, the actual design and architecture skill, isn't going anywhere. I can use carpentry tools to build a bridge over a creek but I'm not qualified to build a bridge carrying Interstate traffic.
- tptacek 2mo ago
  It is obvious what the parent poster is saying, and it's substantively wrong. Give someone a table saw and they're essentially no closer to being a woodworker. It's tricky to use a table saw (trickier still to use it safely). These tool analogies are self-soothing for programmers who see agents is simple tools of their trade. But the point of articles like this is that AI agents are more like spreadsheets --- only more so. They're devices that allow normal people without training or aptitude to do things with computers that only programmers were doing before. They displace programmers. In that sense, the closest physical analogy to a coding agent is probably a 3D printer. But: a really good 3D printer, into which hundreds of billions of dollars had been invested entirely for the purpose of making the printer work weirdly well even for people who have no interest in the different kidns of filament spools.
  - camgunz 2mo ago
    My thing got a little heat but I didn't see for a couple days, so I thought I'd just let it stand. But it's late and I'm reading through my old comments and, while it's necro, thought I'd do a reply here. I'm more than OK with people writing their own software, indeed the main thing I like about the free software movement is that it makes it much easier for people to do that. It's empowering. I don't have a 3D printer, but I like the idea. I think people should be able to build as much of their own stuff as they want. I have a caveat though, which I'll get to at the end. As far as my personal motivation, I--and most SWEs I know--don't really want to build the kinds of things people are using LLMs to build: audio players, billing software, whatever. I also don't think most backend apps, frontend apps, web frameworks, whatever should exist, and whether they were written by people or LLMs doesn't really factor in. More to the point, I think it's crazy that SWEs and tech workers generally make 8474x what other people make, and I think we've provided dubious value for that remittance, to say nothing of the investment, so knocking us down a peg would be putting things to rights. But, candidly, while I wouldn't love losing my job because of LLMs, I don't think that's happening writ large and I don't think it will happen to me specifically, at least not directly or any time soon. Maybe it matters to you that I don't make beaucoup bucks, maybe it doesn't. Anyway, do with all that what you will. Kara Swisher has this great line--dunno if it's originally hers--where some social media person is going on about citizen journalists opening up news and how great it is, and she says that makes about as much sense as citizen surgeons. In the same vein, I don't think a person unaccustomed to designing complex systems should try, just like I don't think someone inexperienced at building a house or a car or a plane should try. I still think this even if we have a one-button mystery machine that play-doh's out an object that seems like it may actually fly a couple of people one town over, and even usually safely does. I think we oughta slap a huge fucking label on the side of that machine that says "we have no idea how this works, and we vouch for it not at all" (I've not yet been goaded into reading the ToS for OpenAI or Anthropic, thank Dark Lord Satan, but I would put $5 down that they assume no liability for anything their models do). So my caveat, and the point of my post, curtly and regrettably expressed via analogy, is that people should feel free to build whatever they want, but they shouldn't build anything they'll seriously rely on. They won't know enough to verify that whatever they build is fit for purpose (and, sweet Satan give me strength, you can't just ask the LLM to verify it for you). Only experts can do that. Also for color, I do own a table saw, as well as some others, which I used very (very, holy shit) unsafely to do a terrible finishing carpentry job on my house and some other odd jobs. My warning to all readers is Google how table saws can fuck you up, and do not ever stand behind the wood you are sawing because the blade can literally shoot it into you, or IDK at least shoot it at you really fast.
santadays 2mo ago
In case anyone missed it, tptacek is saying that ai is different than just a tool. Tool analogies are not good. A better analogy is, now you have what seems like an increasingly intelligent personal assistant that can do any cognitive work that you ask it to do, to increasingly better result, has retrograde amnesia, no accountability, entirely middle of the road morality, access to the internet... eh this isn't really a good analogy either.
- EA-3167 2mo ago
  Don't forget that when you're using it in your own domain you can at least catch its many mistakes and hallucinations, but "Citizen Devs" aren't going to have a knowledge base to do that.
  - tptacek 2mo ago
    I often wonder whether computer programmer said these kinds of things about spreadsheets, and how mere office workers would never have the knowledge base to build serious programs with them. Remember, before Visicalc, every spreadsheet was a program built by a computer programmer.
rascul 2mo ago
> table saws don't rip, cut, or mill stock They actually do all of that
- santadays 2mo ago
  you missed the "for you"
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
- tptacek 2mo ago
  Not for you! You have to actually know how to do that, and physically push the stock through the blade. If you know zero about a table saw, you're more likely to turn a piece of wood into a projectile than to cross-cut it accurately. Again: not something you can say about a coding agent.
  - rascul 2mo ago
    The saw does them for you but it doesn't operate itself. Perhaps I read it too literally.
miyoji 2mo ago
Owning a slave that does all those things still doesn't make you a carpenter.

7bit 2mo ago

The first step in becoming a carpenter is to become a bad carpenter.

arionhardison 2mo ago
I cannot disagree here in theory; but to say that: "The first step to become a doctor is NOT to be a bad doctor, its to go to medical school"
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- pixl97 2mo ago
  Bomb squad technician seems more pertinent here.
- 7bit 2mo ago
  Doctors different mate. There a shit ton of people who just bought a table saw and now are good carpenters. The claim I responded to was nothing but weak elitist gatekeeping. Such people should think really hard why they are how they are. It's ob obnoxious.
  - kraken_cult 2mo ago
    Remember "Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers". There's a reason they go together..
    - stackghost 2mo ago
      >There's a reason they go together.. They're all self-regulating professions with licensing bodies and professional standards?
  - arionhardison 2mo ago
    Agreed, and I in no way meant to be pedantic. I think I did a bad job of articulating point of - where do we draw the line? How many tables did the "people who just bought a table saw" sell before they were "good carpenters". With AI, there are lots of people who think they are "good carpenters". Here in the US; the head of HHS and DOD decided that flu vaccines were no longer mandatory; until the flu exploded on military bases. I am not taking a position here because I genuinely do not know what the answer to this is but I do think it is as important as it is interesting. I many ways I think AI amplifies the "The Dunning-Kruger" by an order of magnitude; I think this could be one of the defining issue of our time.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

rascul 2mo ago

I'd recommend a battery powered circular saw instead of a table saw to get started.