3 ms·

Need to rethink the system that allows for (and encourages) this kind of plausible deniability. From "Oh we need this permission for [non essential feature] and

by pyaamb 1mo ago

Need to rethink the system that allows for (and encourages) this kind of plausible deniability. From "Oh we need this permission for [non essential feature] and you need to accept it if you want the app at all" -> to giving the user ultimate control over what happens on their personal device. Virtualize what the app can see and use fake data/identifiers/devices if necessary to get it to do what its supposed to. If the App isn't going to act in good faith why should the user? Fine grained permissions don't really work in practice because the app can keep annoying the user until they give in and hit Allow.

ajross 1mo ago
What you want is basically how it works. On both phone platforms and PWAs, all permissions are visible to the user explicitly. All of them can be revoked at any time. Apps are disallowed from requesting an already-denied permission. Obviously apps can tell if they haven't been granted a permission (even if you tried to fake this, they aren't dummies and will know if it's not working), and obviously third party software isn't under any obligation to work without them. But the platforms have done what the platforms can do, at the architecture side, really. The next stage is human-audited enforcement of malware, which this AliExpress nonsense might hopefully run afoul of.
- xnx 1mo ago
  > Obviously apps can tell if they haven't been granted a permission (even if you tried to fake this, they aren't dummies and will know if it's not working), How can they tell? For the permissions I can think of: location, filesystem, etc. it should be easy to lie/spoof.
- drdexebtjl 1mo ago
  >Obviously apps can tell if they haven't been granted a permission By design. This doesn’t need to be the case. It should be impossible to tell you have denied a permission. In TFA’s case, the browser could just keep processing audio but never hook it up to a real audio sink.
  - ajross 1mo ago
    That does nothing but start an arms race. Fine, audio "works" but do you get noise? Can you read back the sounds you play? No, right? It doesn't work, QED. Now the platform needs to fake the noise. Likewise for any other hardware access you want, and most of them are harder. How do you fake local storage without storing anything? How do you fake Bluetooth access without virtualizing an entire device? Do you fake the screen dimensions to look like something else? Input latency? Where does it stop? No, "does this work" is among the easiest questions to answer in technology. We aren't going to win this war.
    - emctech 1mo ago
      The best you can do on the modern web is reduce your fingerprint footprint, though it comes at a cost of websites breaking from JS disabling, or local time zone anonymisation.
    - drdexebtjl 1mo ago
      > Can you read back the sounds you play? No, but you also can’t do that if the user approves your app’s permission to play audio, but has the volume permanently turned down to zero. > local storage Give the app a temporary, space-constrained store that isn’t shared with other apps. > bluetooth Don’t let apps access raw bluetooth signals, but instead ask the platform to display a pairing interface (possibly with a custom stylesheet), ask the platform to call you back when a specific device is in range, etc. > screen dimensions Not personal data. > input latency Fudge the numbers even when the user grants permission. This isn’t a war, it’s just engineering for the benefit and autonomy of the user, and not the platforms’ commercial interests.
      - ajross 1mo ago
        > This isn’t a war Fingerprinting and other quasi-malware techniques being used by desirable third party software are absolutely a war, otherwise we wouldn't have this permission structure in place in the first place. And as much as you believe the contrary, Alibaba et. al. are 100% smarter than you about how to exploit these tricks and will win. > Not personal data. LOL
pyaamb 1mo ago
Also perhaps AI agents are now capable enough to run these apps the way the user would and recognize these dark patterns. Flag those and feed it back to a warning at the point of sale that users can upvote there to signal their disapproval and a threshold score that risks removal of the app from the store. Because bad behaviour continues to make business sense if the rules allow it. Moreover, it penalizes and puts pressure on the good actors as a "missed business opportunity".
- mywittyname 1mo ago
  Maybe just have Claude rebuild the app in a non-scummy way. Analyze the site for the relevant data APIs, while avoiding the tracking stuff. Maybe someone maintains an MCP for these popular websites so people can use agents on them.

by pyaamb 1mo ago

ajross 1mo ago

What you want is basically how it works. On both phone platforms and PWAs, all permissions are visible to the user explicitly. All of them can be revoked at any time. Apps are disallowed from requesting an already-denied permission. Obviously apps can tell if they haven't been granted a permission (even if you tried to fake this, they aren't dummies and will know if it's not working), and obviously third party software isn't under any obligation to work without them. But the platforms have done what the platforms can do, at the architecture side, really. The next stage is human-audited enforcement of malware, which this AliExpress nonsense might hopefully run afoul of.

xnx 1mo ago
> Obviously apps can tell if they haven't been granted a permission (even if you tried to fake this, they aren't dummies and will know if it's not working), How can they tell? For the permissions I can think of: location, filesystem, etc. it should be easy to lie/spoof.
drdexebtjl 1mo ago
>Obviously apps can tell if they haven't been granted a permission By design. This doesn’t need to be the case. It should be impossible to tell you have denied a permission. In TFA’s case, the browser could just keep processing audio but never hook it up to a real audio sink.
- ajross 1mo ago
  That does nothing but start an arms race. Fine, audio "works" but do you get noise? Can you read back the sounds you play? No, right? It doesn't work, QED. Now the platform needs to fake the noise. Likewise for any other hardware access you want, and most of them are harder. How do you fake local storage without storing anything? How do you fake Bluetooth access without virtualizing an entire device? Do you fake the screen dimensions to look like something else? Input latency? Where does it stop? No, "does this work" is among the easiest questions to answer in technology. We aren't going to win this war.
  - emctech 1mo ago
    The best you can do on the modern web is reduce your fingerprint footprint, though it comes at a cost of websites breaking from JS disabling, or local time zone anonymisation.
  - drdexebtjl 1mo ago
    > Can you read back the sounds you play? No, but you also can’t do that if the user approves your app’s permission to play audio, but has the volume permanently turned down to zero. > local storage Give the app a temporary, space-constrained store that isn’t shared with other apps. > bluetooth Don’t let apps access raw bluetooth signals, but instead ask the platform to display a pairing interface (possibly with a custom stylesheet), ask the platform to call you back when a specific device is in range, etc. > screen dimensions Not personal data. > input latency Fudge the numbers even when the user grants permission. This isn’t a war, it’s just engineering for the benefit and autonomy of the user, and not the platforms’ commercial interests.
    - ajross 1mo ago
      > This isn’t a war Fingerprinting and other quasi-malware techniques being used by desirable third party software are absolutely a war, otherwise we wouldn't have this permission structure in place in the first place. And as much as you believe the contrary, Alibaba et. al. are 100% smarter than you about how to exploit these tricks and will win. > Not personal data. LOL

pyaamb 1mo ago

Also perhaps AI agents are now capable enough to run these apps the way the user would and recognize these dark patterns. Flag those and feed it back to a warning at the point of sale that users can upvote there to signal their disapproval and a threshold score that risks removal of the app from the store. Because bad behaviour continues to make business sense if the rules allow it. Moreover, it penalizes and puts pressure on the good actors as a "missed business opportunity".

mywittyname 1mo ago
Maybe just have Claude rebuild the app in a non-scummy way. Analyze the site for the relevant data APIs, while avoiding the tracking stuff. Maybe someone maintains an MCP for these popular websites so people can use agents on them.