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Casio has been leaving a lot of money on the table in terms of nostalgia products. There's been a low rumble of demand for the Casio CZ series of synthesizers f
by SwellJoe 2mo ago
Casio has been leaving a lot of money on the table in terms of nostalgia products. There's been a low rumble of demand for the Casio CZ series of synthesizers for a decade or more, and a bunch of non-Casio companies have cashed in on it (Behringer makes CZ-1 Mini, Arturia has CZ V, several other phase distortion synths exist). It's incredibly cheap to replicate, a simple early digital synthesis algorithm that'll run on anything; Korg has been making ARM-based emulation synths (basically a Raspberry Pi-like SoC in a keyboard form factor with some knobs) for a decade or more and I have to assume their margins are very comfortable since most of the guts are off-the-shelf low-cost parts rather than custom chips.
But, I guess their watches were always a bigger business than the synths.
- karlgkk 2mo agothe watches are a high end fast fashion brand in japan. it seems to be very lucrative
- ChrisMarshallNY 2mo agoI have a couple of Oceanus brand watches that I got in Japan. They are fairly un-cheap. However, in Japan, their G-Shock brand (kind of lower cost, in the US), can get even more expensive than Oceanus. Some of them look like Pip-Boys (Because this is HN, I need to mention that this is a deliberate exaggeration).
- wolvoleo 2mo agoNow I'm curious, do you have some examples?
- ChrisMarshallNY 2mo agoNot offhand. I got the watches in that big Akihabura store, about 20 years ago, and they had a shitton of G-Shocks, as well as Oceanus. I saw several 6-digit prices. Many of the folks I worked with, could afford good watches, and wore G-Shocks. They were quite proud of them. I suspect you’ll see them on the Japanese Casio site.
- karlgkk 2mo agoLook up gshocks around $300 on chrono24 etc. then go look up the new MSRP There are collectible models that sell used higher than they were new, but for the most part they’re much cheaper Then there are lines like MR-G. hand hammered metal cases made out of premium materials.
- ChrisMarshallNY 2mo agoIt's entirely possible that the more expensive "G-Shocks" were Mr G. I remember seeing wording about titanium cases, etc., but most of it was in Japanese, so the only thing that jumped out at me, were the price tags.
- wolvoleo 2mo agoOh yeah I never heard of chrono24. I'm not a watch guy at all :) I was just interested because I used to have casio watches when I was young. After which the mobile phones emerged and I stopped wearing a watch at all, until they started doing more interesting stuff (payments and notifications are what interests me mainly).
- karlgkk 2mo agoTbh I actually stopped wearing smart watches and started buying G shocks because I don’t want notifications lol
- wolvoleo 2mo agoWell yeah I do really prune them deeply especially for my watch (it has its own notifications list). I only let the most important ones through. But even on my phone most chats don't trigger notifications. I just see them when I see them. Only the most important people can trigger them.
- shrx 2mo agohttps://gshock.casio.com/europe/products/mr-g/ https://gshock.casio.com/europe/products/mr-g/ The MR-G models are priced in the thousands.
- fnord77 2mo ago80s casio watches are the rage with kids in the US, too
- coldtea 2mo agoNot just Japan, they're widely popular globally as daily drivers, but also as "fashion" watches, with Gen Z too.
- altairprime 2mo ago> Casio has been leaving a lot of money on the table in terms of nostalgia products Casio has been quite successful at not abusing trust in their brand by releasing lower-quality outsourced replicas like HP did with their calculators. Not that HP had much farther to fall but it’s nice to see a corporation that’s not incompetent!
- SwellJoe 2mo agoThey don't have far to fall in the synth world. Their current keyboard line has no synthesizers to speak of. But, also, they still have a keyboard line and relationships with music dealers, so presumably they wouldn't need to outsource the return of the CZ.
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- usrusr 2mo agoTrying not to leave any money on the table is exactly the approach that reliably kills off nostalgia income streams. Picking off some low hanging fruit while demonstrating provable restraint can result in a huge money stream that goes on and on. But when the mindset "it's good, but it can be better!" becomes dominant (e.g. through market dynamics, being publicly traded means that ownership perpetually shifts to those who think that income sources could be squeezed just a little harder, or much harder, actually), it quickly turns sour. And when it flips from beloved to "why throw money at those greedy $expletive,plural" it flips hard, and forever.
- asimovfan 2mo agoG-Shocks could be so much better, and it has been this way for at least a decade.
- coldtea 2mo ago"So much better" means "with added smartwatch crap"? The whole value of them is they are simple, minimally changed over time (you can depend on getting the same model in a decade), functional, with no/bare minimum smartwatch crappery, essentially endless battery, and no planned obselecense.
- red-iron-pine 2mo agoa smart watch to use forever. how long is their support cycle?
- PennRobotics 2mo agoThe G-Shock is great but not perfect. Some things I wanted when I was deployed in the desert: No metal against skin AT ALL, silent but sturdy flap for covering the display (bonus if nonmagnetic), less/no nooks to collect sand/mud, sync radio time internationally, no shiny metal whatsoever (mine was shades of beige and "olive drab green" almost everywhere but still had polished metal screws and a polished metal buckle), ability to disable or configure backlight strength/color. I'm sure battery and charging tech has improved in the past two decades as well. It also would've been nice to have longitude/latitude readout internationally (so: satellite sensor plus support for Galileo and other recent global navigation services). Vibration alarms could have been more convenient than beeping, especially if there's a "stay awake on night post by buzzing every X minutes" mode.
- ilikeitdark13 2mo agoCompletely right about the synths, Casio has been missing out. Their new Sampler looks really nice, and has been a surprise in the music world.
- SwellJoe 2mo agoThey've also dipped their toes into guitar toys with the Dimension Shifter. They do seem to be kind of paying attention to the music market again, after decades away from it. So, I'll keep hoping for a really good CZ re-issue.
- NDlurker 2mo agoThat sampler looks so fun and I want to buy it but I already have a PO33 and SP404 MK2. So I really don't need it. Probably keep an eye out on reverb in the next year or so
- TheOtherHobbes 2mo agoKorg did it right - budget off-the-shelf processor, most of the money spent on the UI, wildly optimistic prices, no nostalgic ties. The expensive part of a modern synth isn't the DSP board, it's the industrial design and tooling needed to build the rest of the hardware. The CZ series was workable, but there really aren't many passionate nostalgic buyers waiting to drop a few hundred - minimum - on an expensive reissue.
- fitsumbelay 2mo agoAgreed. My knowledge/experience with synths is limited but between DSPs that're as available as ketchup and Kleenex for the past few decades and an LLM there's not much to rolling one's one. A watch on the other hand is higher LOE
- SwellJoe 2mo agoThere's not much to rolling one's own FM synth, either, and there are dozens of successful commercial products built on it.
- SwellJoe 2mo agoI don't think I buy that argument (that there aren't enough people interested in it). It's not quite in the ball park of something like the DX 7 or several of the better known analog synths, which have nearly all seen re-issues, mini-versions, software emulations, etc., often several. Damned near every Roland synth from that era has seen a re-issue and official plugin. Yamaha has been more measured in their re-issue plays, but the DX did get a reface DX, along with the CS, CP and YC. FM synthesis has been wildly successful in nostalgia synths as well as novel takes on the idea (e.g. the Elektron FM groove box) and Korg's Opsix (I have two of them, the first gen small one and the big expensive one made in Japan), and Yamaha still ships FM synthesis engines in their high end workstations. And, there's at least four plugins that emulate the CZ (I'm working on a fifth to be released in another month or two). I don't think all that would exist without some demand. I have a soft spot for early digital synths, and I think a lot of other folks do, too. I don't like to buy from Behringer, but it's the only hardware option out there right now aside from the real thing (I own a real CZ 101, but I wouldn't want to take it out of the studio). AudioPilz (Bad Gear) even made a video demanding it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb8nMZE-bb0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb8nMZE-bb0
- slim 2mo agoyou can have cz samples in the upcoming Casio SXC-1 ! toy sampler is the new toy synthesizer
- SwellJoe 2mo agoI have a real CZ 101. And, I've implemented a synth engine that emulates it quite closely. But, I still want a modern Casio CZ. I just think it'd be neat. The sampler is cool, though.
- numpad0 2mo agoA lot of Japanese companies leave piles on the table. One often unnoticed reality of Japanese imports and exports, at least in modern days, is that Japan as a whole has total double standards on those, requiring over the top perfection for imports but exports are almost on take it or leave it basis. Even Nintendo products are at barely acceptable levels if the standards for imports were applied to e.g. en-US editions. It's a miracle that Japanese products have substantial sales volumes and good reputations at all. It's quite unlike Chinese engineering of today.
- coldtea 2mo agoYou make it sound like their exports are subpar. They're excellent.
- numpad0 2mo agoThe oddity I see isn't that quality isn't great, but that developments and company public relations feedback loops are almost open looped in the global scope, only closed in domestic Japanese scope, as if the entire global part were a surplus sale. It somehow works but it's a bit weird, and it looks to me that this open loop setup is causing a lot of tiny but accumulative pains for a lot of Japanese products, which is just ... unfortunate, I guess.
- quickthrowman 2mo agoThere are Japanese companies that focus on quality, Grand Seiko and Credor (Seiko) watches are finished to a high degree by hand. They have used urushi lacquer, hand polishing, hand enameled dials, and all kinds of other high end finishing techniques.
- steve-atx-7600 2mo agoHopefully because they’re focusing on having relevance in the future. It’s sad as a gen Xer to see Japanese electronics companies fading away.
- SwellJoe 2mo agoThey ate American manufacturing's lunch and now China is eating theirs. The circle of life, or something. But, yeah, I have fond feelings for a lot of Japanese brands, not just electronics (my favorite car since childhood is a Nissan Z, speaking of Japanese companies on the ropes).
- ajxs 2mo agoIt's a really good question why Casio didn't continue making synths after the 80s. It's possible that the entire CZ-line was intended to be a one-off response to Yamaha's breakaway success with the DX7. After the CZ-line, it looks like Casio tried to keep up with Yamaha for a few years, but exited the market after Yamaha launched the SY-line. From what I understand, the CZ-series were great sellers then, but even with all of the nostalgia they'd never move large numbers now. For what it's worth, Yamaha aren't particularly nostalgic about their cult-classic synths either. I guess that from their perspective, the DX7 and CZ-101 were already obsolete within a few short years. By 1990 the sound had already become quite dated, and technology had moved on. Now that they've become popular again as a cult-classic, the margin just isn't there anymore because of the market share of software, or cheap independent FM/PD synths. Shameless plug, in case anyone is interested, I've done some work reverse-engineering some of these synths: - https://github.com/ajxs/casio_cz101_rom_disassembly https://github.com/ajxs/casio_cz101_rom_disassembly - https://ajxs.me/blog/uCOM-87_The_Strangest_Architecture_Youve_Never_Worked_With.html https://ajxs.me/blog/uCOM-87_The_Strangest_Architecture_Youv...
- SwellJoe 2mo agoAwesome. When I was researching the CZ 101 (still am, actually), I spent some time reading the MAME implementation, including the NEC upd933 chip emulation. I was going to say I'm surprised I didn't find your docs, but it looks like they were all published late last year which is precisely when I was doing my research (I used the holiday to work on some projects I'd been stewing on in the back of my mind, and a phase distortion plugin was one of them). I don't know why I find that era of synth so enjoyable and interesting, but I do. I love every FM synth, but that side of things feels pretty well covered by existing tools. Korg makes the OpSix (and I have two), Yamaha has the reface DX and I think their workstations still ship an AFM engine, and there are at least a half dozen plugins that are mostly quite accurate, and a handful of other hardware options. Phase distortion just feels more neglected, so that's the one I've been spending time on. I have an excellent engine running, which is more accurate than the Arturia CZ V engine (at least compared to my actual CZ 101, maybe they were comparing against another model, but the MAME engine is also like the real CZ and not like Arturia, so I am inclined to say Arturia got sloppy), but I'm going pretty slow on the UI. Making a nice plugin UI for a synth that didn't have a nice UI is a challenge. You can't just copy the original UI if you want it to be fun to use.
- monster_truck 2mo agoHmm I wonder what else Casio watches have been a big part of over the past 30 years that may have put a hamper on such things, I wouldn't look into it
- Ancapistani 2mo agoGood point. They’re probably repurposing an F-91W line.
- v9v 2mo agoThe (relatively new) Casiotone CT-S1000V and CT-S500 have CZ sounds included along with fun voice synthesis technology, and are recommended as a good cheap keyboard on some forums.
- johnke 2mo ago> basically a Raspberry Pi-like SoC Not just Pi-like - the Wavestate is using an actual Raspberry Pi CM3 module! https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/electronic-music-icon-korg-makes-music-with-raspberry-pi/ https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/electronic-music-icon-korg-...