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I kinda agree with you but Could you please elaborate on “ having kids does all the good things in life at once” as I dont see how is that so straightforward. I

I kinda agree with you but Could you please elaborate on “ having kids does all the good things in life at once” as I dont see how is that so straightforward. I’m actually currently really conflicted on the idea whether I want or dont want kids.

mysterydip 2mo ago
I was on the fence for a long time as well. It just looked like a lot of work. And not to sugar coat it, it _is_ a lot of work. But it’s also been so rewarding. You get to see someone experience things for the first time, like riding a bike or eating a tomato. Teaching them it’s ok to have feelings, helping them overcome their fears, watching them make friends. Giving them the advice I wished I had heard from someone I trusted growing up. And a million other things. And the hug and kiss at night with “I love you daddy” can’t be replicated.
- OvervCW 2mo ago
  Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right? This may sound somewhat reductive, and please correct me if that is the case, but I find that I can be around and play with my nephew and experience all of this wonder and how he progresses through life, while not being around for the sleepless nights and tantrums that I feel are the "work" part of being a parent.
  - blanched 2mo ago
    In the spirit of this forum and at the risk of being very cringe, I’d guess that’s like being the founder of a company versus being one of the early employees :)
  - mysterydip 2mo ago
    In part, for sure. I was an uncle for a long time, which formed part of my hesitation. But there’s a different level of investment and connection if you are responsible for something 24/7. Like visiting someone’s house and seeing their dog do a trick, vs having your own dog and training it. There’s people who can articulate it better than me, but (not to sound sappy about it) the first time I held my firstborn my world changed. Edit: I think another poster put it well that “it wasn’t about ‘me’ anymore”. Depending on your disposition, this could be great or it could be really bad. I’ve definitely changed for the better over the course of being a parent.
    - OvervCW 2mo ago
      I like your dog trick analogy, that definitely helped me understand it more :)
  - sailfast 2mo ago
    No, unfortunately. It's similar, but different in my opinion / view.
  - jumpkick 2mo ago
    Obviously a personal anecdote and YMMV, but I have several nieces and nephews, and I've gotten to watch them grow over the last ~15 years. During this time, I've tried to spend as much time with them as I can. But I'm a new dad as of this year, and it's totally different. It really doesn't compare. There's only so much time you can spend with someone else's kid, even if they're family. Even seeing a niece or nephew every week doesn't compare with waking up with a newborn at 3 AM and seeing them stick their tongue out for the first time, or seeing the squinty face they make when they try a strawberry for the first time at 5 PM on a random Tuesday.
    - TimTheTinker 2mo ago
      It also doesn't compare with the sheer joy of having a little one who joyfully loves the heck out of you because you've bonded with each other and they feel loved and secure with you -- you've cared for them, loved them unconditionally, been understanding, responsive, and emotionally stable with them, and patiently/consistently enforced healthy boundaries on their behavior. In a sense, one could say there's no greater joy. But there's also perhaps no greater pain when parenting gets really complex and hard. One of my kids is autistic and raising him has been incredibly difficult and painful (he's a teen now).
  - thunspa 2mo ago
    As is the case with so many things, the person you're replying to will reply with what they can quantify about the experience, but there is much much more to it that is unquantifiable and hard to convey. It is the difference between "using" someone's child for the satisfaction of these experiences, versus raising a child for their own sake, that you are wholly responsible for, especially in the early years.
  - tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
    What I found and I think this is quite common for men is my attitude to kids in general completely changed once I had my own.
  - the_af 2mo ago
    > Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right? No, not really. Also not the same as being the cool uncle/aunt, though that can give you a lightweight preview. I know because I went through this myself, I was so involved with my nephews I became their favorite uncle by far, and to this day they still remind me of this. In reality, only being an actual parent can give you the true experience. Nothing else comes close.
- wat10000 2mo ago
  To offer a contrasting opinion, I was on the fence, went for it, and it was a big mistake. Unfortunately, it's impossible to be sure what it'll be like until you try it. And there's no undo button. I would strongly recommend not having children until you're absolutely sure you want to.
  - mysterydip 2mo ago
    Absolutely agree! There are people that parenting is not a good fit, for various reasons. And it does a disservice to both the parent and the child.
  - the_af 2mo ago
    > I would strongly recommend not having children until you're absolutely sure you want to. That's good advice. I'll add the caveat that sometimes you cannot be entirely sure (few things in life are so clear cut), but if you truly hesitate, don't do it. Also don't do it for the sake of a partner who insists, or to save your relationship. Big mistake; children are neither bargaining chips nor bets that can pay off. If you're leaning towards "yes", however, I think it can be a wonderful (if hard!) experience.
    - wat10000 1mo ago
      Yeah, I guess 100% certainty is not achievable. But it should be to the point where the thought is “hell yeah, let’s do this” rather than “I’m not so sure.”
bluecheese452 2mo ago
It is an absolute ton of work and is absolutely worth it for me.
lordnacho 2mo ago
It's not a cost-benefit calculation. You just do it because you do it and you wouldn't be you if you didn't. Hard to put in words. And yes, you will feel like "WTF why did I do this" at times. A lot of people have parents who will remind them that they could have had an easy life instead. I try not say that even though I think it too. I could sell you some fluff about being part of a continuity or the reward it brings, but it's post hoc rationalisation.
- datingmyself 2mo ago
  There is no easy life so stop thinking it.
sailfast 2mo ago
If you want to dedicate your life to raising and creating a new human being from the ground up, and being able to see your work in action as they grow to become an actual human person - impressing you, disappointing you, going their own way, surprising you, then parenting might be for you. It's expensive, and labor intensive, and full of decisions that are damnably hard because there's no "right" answer. It's a cult. It's a genetic imperative. It's also amazing. You will not necessarily experience a tangible personal benefit - it's not an investment with a return. It's a "pour your love into this thing and get love back" kinda deal.
thunspa 2mo ago
The replies in this thread are already very good. I'm a dad of two, but I won't add anything more than that you will be hard pressed to find a parent who will regret having children. I understand the bias in it, but people can be persuaded into honesty and, under anonymity on this website, are more likely to be honest about such things.
- stackskipton 2mo ago
  Partner and I are childfree but in talking with other parents about it, I've had 3 admit, if they knew now, they wouldn't have had kids or had less. My father was one of them.
  - thunspa 1mo ago
    Interesting. Did they cite any reasons?
- Jtarii 2mo ago
  >you will be hard pressed to find a parent who will regret having children It is such an extreme social taboo to admit you regret having your children that even if you find someone that does you would never know.
  - the_af 1mo ago
    Agreed, though I know some people who evidently regretted having children, or never bonded with their own but developed "quasi-parental" relationships with children who weren't their own. More than one case, actually! But I think most parents, in reasonable socioeconomic conditions, don't regret having children.
  - thunspa 1mo ago
    I agree, I would assume anonymity would allow for some honesty here, but I agree.
Aurornis 2mo ago
Looking back, I found most Internet comment section advice about having kids to be unhelpful. There’s a cliche that gets rephrased 1000 different ways to say a variation of “It’s a lot of work and my kids drive me crazy but I wouldn’t trade it for the world”. Now that I am a parent that advice feels like it oversells the negatives and fails to explain why people like their kids. Truthfully, it is hard to relate to non-parents why you enjoy your own kids. It’s completely different than babysitting someone else’s kids. It’s your family and you like being with them. After work I’d rather hang out with my kids and go for a bike ride or build legos with them instead of relax and watch TV. I’m kind of dreading the day that they don’t want to spend so much time with me because we have so much fun. It’s a little extra motivation to get my work done early and start my day early so I can have more time with them, which is something I never thought I’d say as a nights and evenings person. The extra work is more work than if I didn’t have kids and just relaxed after work and on weekends, but it’s not the world-ending grind like some people talk about. The early part where they’re waking up through the night and need constant feedings and changes goes by quickly and then you’re into a routine and teaching them ever more self sufficiency. I wouldn’t dwell on it, or at least don’t let it be an obstacle to imagining the rest of your years with a family. It’s a year or two of altered sleep schedules for 40 years of having a family. Getting balanced takes from happy parents around you is a good idea. Online it’s too easy to get drawn into social media whirlpools of unhappy parents venting about things, but I’ve found the best advice comes from the happy parents around you that are quietly enjoying their lives without bringing up the topic of kids. You have to bring it up with them. Depending on where you work, it’s possible that the average person around you has a family and is happy about it, but they’re not bringing it up all the time because it’s just normal life for them.
TrueDuality 2mo ago
I have a kid with my partner and I'm still not sure it was the right decision for me. They do become a full-time job in their own right and there is a whole set of skills that you can kind of learn through books but is going to be unique to your little one. The first couple of months were especially hard as they don't have much of a personality, don't really react much to the world around them, they're just feeding, sleeping, and growing. Starting at the beginning of the third month for me it started changing and every baby is kind of unique. I now _detest_ most of the books/articles/child-rearing advice I've encountered. Most of all of their content is fluff to pad pages, a blog roll, and are frequently superseded by more modern research backed evidence. There is a lot of toxic advice in those books and systems as well, usually for parents that are prioritizing restoring their prior social lives over the well-being of their children. It's time-consuming and exhausting, but I haven't found it to be _hard_ yet. Waking up in the middle of the night and giving your kid a hug and maybe reading to them a bit when they have a nightmare isn't a challenging task. The challenging tasks are exceptions (surprise medical issues, your daycare closing down with two days notice, etc). The baby and child industry put a cost premium on the clothes targeting them and they don't last very long due to the child's growth. I _saw_ this coming but not to the extreme it has actually manifested and you'll find it replicated in every child/baby sized item. There are a lot of surprising upsides and my motivations have definitely changed since we had a kid. I will flip a mountain to see my kid smile and laugh, it hits deep. I enjoy spending time with her and I'm terrified of missing her achievements and milestones. When she comes to me and asks me to show her how something works, wants a book read to her, or just wants a hive five I get a double whammy of that serotonin once for being a Dad that she wants to engage with and once for getting to spend time with her. I still, and unfortunately kind of frequently, miss what I have effectively sacrificed to have her. I am slower at staying on top of emerging trends, hobbies have been left by the wayside that I did for decades, I gave up running conferences and with it I drifted away from whole treasured social groups. None of this was really a surprise, but I didn't realize how much what I gave up was really part of who I was.
- tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
  The social thing is interesting, you will inevitably drift away from friends who don't have kids. Even for the ones who do you will be so busy with your own life that you won't get to see them much. You will probably end up with more contact with parents from their schools although that will stop suddenly when they finish. Not sure what the solution is other than putting in some deliberate effort to maintain those relationships (which I didn't do).

mysterydip 2mo ago

I was on the fence for a long time as well. It just looked like a lot of work. And not to sugar coat it, it _is_ a lot of work. But it’s also been so rewarding. You get to see someone experience things for the first time, like riding a bike or eating a tomato. Teaching them it’s ok to have feelings, helping them overcome their fears, watching them make friends. Giving them the advice I wished I had heard from someone I trusted growing up. And a million other things. And the hug and kiss at night with “I love you daddy” can’t be replicated.

OvervCW 2mo ago
Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right? This may sound somewhat reductive, and please correct me if that is the case, but I find that I can be around and play with my nephew and experience all of this wonder and how he progresses through life, while not being around for the sleepless nights and tantrums that I feel are the "work" part of being a parent.
- blanched 2mo ago
  In the spirit of this forum and at the risk of being very cringe, I’d guess that’s like being the founder of a company versus being one of the early employees :)
- mysterydip 2mo ago
  In part, for sure. I was an uncle for a long time, which formed part of my hesitation. But there’s a different level of investment and connection if you are responsible for something 24/7. Like visiting someone’s house and seeing their dog do a trick, vs having your own dog and training it. There’s people who can articulate it better than me, but (not to sound sappy about it) the first time I held my firstborn my world changed. Edit: I think another poster put it well that “it wasn’t about ‘me’ anymore”. Depending on your disposition, this could be great or it could be really bad. I’ve definitely changed for the better over the course of being a parent.
  - OvervCW 2mo ago
    I like your dog trick analogy, that definitely helped me understand it more :)
- sailfast 2mo ago
  No, unfortunately. It's similar, but different in my opinion / view.
- jumpkick 2mo ago
  Obviously a personal anecdote and YMMV, but I have several nieces and nephews, and I've gotten to watch them grow over the last ~15 years. During this time, I've tried to spend as much time with them as I can. But I'm a new dad as of this year, and it's totally different. It really doesn't compare. There's only so much time you can spend with someone else's kid, even if they're family. Even seeing a niece or nephew every week doesn't compare with waking up with a newborn at 3 AM and seeing them stick their tongue out for the first time, or seeing the squinty face they make when they try a strawberry for the first time at 5 PM on a random Tuesday.
  - TimTheTinker 2mo ago
    It also doesn't compare with the sheer joy of having a little one who joyfully loves the heck out of you because you've bonded with each other and they feel loved and secure with you -- you've cared for them, loved them unconditionally, been understanding, responsive, and emotionally stable with them, and patiently/consistently enforced healthy boundaries on their behavior. In a sense, one could say there's no greater joy. But there's also perhaps no greater pain when parenting gets really complex and hard. One of my kids is autistic and raising him has been incredibly difficult and painful (he's a teen now).
- thunspa 2mo ago
  As is the case with so many things, the person you're replying to will reply with what they can quantify about the experience, but there is much much more to it that is unquantifiable and hard to convey. It is the difference between "using" someone's child for the satisfaction of these experiences, versus raising a child for their own sake, that you are wholly responsible for, especially in the early years.
- tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
  What I found and I think this is quite common for men is my attitude to kids in general completely changed once I had my own.
- the_af 2mo ago
  > Surely a lot of this can be experienced by associating with parents and their children rather than having them yourself, right? No, not really. Also not the same as being the cool uncle/aunt, though that can give you a lightweight preview. I know because I went through this myself, I was so involved with my nephews I became their favorite uncle by far, and to this day they still remind me of this. In reality, only being an actual parent can give you the true experience. Nothing else comes close.
wat10000 2mo ago
To offer a contrasting opinion, I was on the fence, went for it, and it was a big mistake. Unfortunately, it's impossible to be sure what it'll be like until you try it. And there's no undo button. I would strongly recommend not having children until you're absolutely sure you want to.
- mysterydip 2mo ago
  Absolutely agree! There are people that parenting is not a good fit, for various reasons. And it does a disservice to both the parent and the child.
- the_af 2mo ago
  > I would strongly recommend not having children until you're absolutely sure you want to. That's good advice. I'll add the caveat that sometimes you cannot be entirely sure (few things in life are so clear cut), but if you truly hesitate, don't do it. Also don't do it for the sake of a partner who insists, or to save your relationship. Big mistake; children are neither bargaining chips nor bets that can pay off. If you're leaning towards "yes", however, I think it can be a wonderful (if hard!) experience.
  - wat10000 1mo ago
    Yeah, I guess 100% certainty is not achievable. But it should be to the point where the thought is “hell yeah, let’s do this” rather than “I’m not so sure.”

bluecheese452 2mo ago

It is an absolute ton of work and is absolutely worth it for me.

lordnacho 2mo ago

It's not a cost-benefit calculation. You just do it because you do it and you wouldn't be you if you didn't. Hard to put in words. And yes, you will feel like "WTF why did I do this" at times. A lot of people have parents who will remind them that they could have had an easy life instead. I try not say that even though I think it too. I could sell you some fluff about being part of a continuity or the reward it brings, but it's post hoc rationalisation.

datingmyself 2mo ago
There is no easy life so stop thinking it.

sailfast 2mo ago

If you want to dedicate your life to raising and creating a new human being from the ground up, and being able to see your work in action as they grow to become an actual human person - impressing you, disappointing you, going their own way, surprising you, then parenting might be for you. It's expensive, and labor intensive, and full of decisions that are damnably hard because there's no "right" answer. It's a cult. It's a genetic imperative. It's also amazing. You will not necessarily experience a tangible personal benefit - it's not an investment with a return. It's a "pour your love into this thing and get love back" kinda deal.

thunspa 2mo ago

The replies in this thread are already very good. I'm a dad of two, but I won't add anything more than that you will be hard pressed to find a parent who will regret having children. I understand the bias in it, but people can be persuaded into honesty and, under anonymity on this website, are more likely to be honest about such things.

stackskipton 2mo ago
Partner and I are childfree but in talking with other parents about it, I've had 3 admit, if they knew now, they wouldn't have had kids or had less. My father was one of them.
- thunspa 1mo ago
  Interesting. Did they cite any reasons?
Jtarii 2mo ago
>you will be hard pressed to find a parent who will regret having children It is such an extreme social taboo to admit you regret having your children that even if you find someone that does you would never know.
- the_af 1mo ago
  Agreed, though I know some people who evidently regretted having children, or never bonded with their own but developed "quasi-parental" relationships with children who weren't their own. More than one case, actually! But I think most parents, in reasonable socioeconomic conditions, don't regret having children.
- thunspa 1mo ago
  I agree, I would assume anonymity would allow for some honesty here, but I agree.

Aurornis 2mo ago

Looking back, I found most Internet comment section advice about having kids to be unhelpful. There’s a cliche that gets rephrased 1000 different ways to say a variation of “It’s a lot of work and my kids drive me crazy but I wouldn’t trade it for the world”. Now that I am a parent that advice feels like it oversells the negatives and fails to explain why people like their kids. Truthfully, it is hard to relate to non-parents why you enjoy your own kids. It’s completely different than babysitting someone else’s kids. It’s your family and you like being with them. After work I’d rather hang out with my kids and go for a bike ride or build legos with them instead of relax and watch TV. I’m kind of dreading the day that they don’t want to spend so much time with me because we have so much fun. It’s a little extra motivation to get my work done early and start my day early so I can have more time with them, which is something I never thought I’d say as a nights and evenings person. The extra work is more work than if I didn’t have kids and just relaxed after work and on weekends, but it’s not the world-ending grind like some people talk about. The early part where they’re waking up through the night and need constant feedings and changes goes by quickly and then you’re into a routine and teaching them ever more self sufficiency. I wouldn’t dwell on it, or at least don’t let it be an obstacle to imagining the rest of your years with a family. It’s a year or two of altered sleep schedules for 40 years of having a family. Getting balanced takes from happy parents around you is a good idea. Online it’s too easy to get drawn into social media whirlpools of unhappy parents venting about things, but I’ve found the best advice comes from the happy parents around you that are quietly enjoying their lives without bringing up the topic of kids. You have to bring it up with them. Depending on where you work, it’s possible that the average person around you has a family and is happy about it, but they’re not bringing it up all the time because it’s just normal life for them.

TrueDuality 2mo ago

I have a kid with my partner and I'm still not sure it was the right decision for me. They do become a full-time job in their own right and there is a whole set of skills that you can kind of learn through books but is going to be unique to your little one. The first couple of months were especially hard as they don't have much of a personality, don't really react much to the world around them, they're just feeding, sleeping, and growing. Starting at the beginning of the third month for me it started changing and every baby is kind of unique. I now _detest_ most of the books/articles/child-rearing advice I've encountered. Most of all of their content is fluff to pad pages, a blog roll, and are frequently superseded by more modern research backed evidence. There is a lot of toxic advice in those books and systems as well, usually for parents that are prioritizing restoring their prior social lives over the well-being of their children. It's time-consuming and exhausting, but I haven't found it to be _hard_ yet. Waking up in the middle of the night and giving your kid a hug and maybe reading to them a bit when they have a nightmare isn't a challenging task. The challenging tasks are exceptions (surprise medical issues, your daycare closing down with two days notice, etc). The baby and child industry put a cost premium on the clothes targeting them and they don't last very long due to the child's growth. I _saw_ this coming but not to the extreme it has actually manifested and you'll find it replicated in every child/baby sized item. There are a lot of surprising upsides and my motivations have definitely changed since we had a kid. I will flip a mountain to see my kid smile and laugh, it hits deep. I enjoy spending time with her and I'm terrified of missing her achievements and milestones. When she comes to me and asks me to show her how something works, wants a book read to her, or just wants a hive five I get a double whammy of that serotonin once for being a Dad that she wants to engage with and once for getting to spend time with her. I still, and unfortunately kind of frequently, miss what I have effectively sacrificed to have her. I am slower at staying on top of emerging trends, hobbies have been left by the wayside that I did for decades, I gave up running conferences and with it I drifted away from whole treasured social groups. None of this was really a surprise, but I didn't realize how much what I gave up was really part of who I was.

tonyedgecombe 2mo ago
The social thing is interesting, you will inevitably drift away from friends who don't have kids. Even for the ones who do you will be so busy with your own life that you won't get to see them much. You will probably end up with more contact with parents from their schools although that will stop suddenly when they finish. Not sure what the solution is other than putting in some deliberate effort to maintain those relationships (which I didn't do).