4 ms·

I would love for this to be optimized to the point that its portable and can be carried around, assembled on the side of the mountain, and used as a low-cost, e

I would love for this to be optimized to the point that its portable and can be carried around, assembled on the side of the mountain, and used as a low-cost, efficient way to throw things from one mountain to another, maybe for avalanche control, or cloud seeding, or indeed for seed bombs intended for re-wilding hard to access places, or something. It just seems like such an obvious tool, rather than a weapon.

roer 2mo ago
You'd probably be better off using a rail gun if you want a carriable launcher
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Really? With the required infrastructure to charge it, also in the backpack, for a few weeks of work too? Is gravity a subscription service in your world?
  - roer 2mo ago
    Depends entirely on the specifics of your usecase what concessions you want to make. One launch location or multiple? What frequency of launch? How heavy are the payloads? How good accuracy? What transport methods are available? How long should it operate without maintenance? Is solar an option if we go electric? Etc.
    - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
      Multiple locations, thus the need for it to be easily portable. I guess a couple hundred launches a day would be useful for seed-bombing/re-wilding, especially on rugged terrain. Seed-bomb weight: I’d say anywhere from 1-10 grams, maybe? Accuracy - it’s a seed bomb, you want dispersal to happen, so maybe the more interesting question is, how would you design a seed bomb to survive the trebuchet speeds and g-forces while also allowing for directed dispersal in the intended area. Seed-bomb design for impact conditions is also something of interest - some seeds need to be embedded in a layer of soil, some don’t. There are many parameters to optimize in the seed-bomb side of things, too. Transport method: backpack-friendly, I think. I’d hike to an area, set up the trebuchet, and spend the day dispersing in a wide circle around the base. If the terrain is rugged, portability is especially important. Operational time - one thing I think is important is that the trebuchet be resilient for long term use. If Toms’ engineering efforts prove fruitful, I’m sure the material construction will get some optimization such that, perhaps, the only thing that would need to be maintained would be the line - however, this is a known science, see for example the sailing industry, rappel lines, etc. Solar/electric? I think a wind attachment for rewinding might be a bit more productive. The scenario: a team of 5 is off for a month in rugged terrain, with the intent of dispersing targeted seed packages over a wide region. The seed bombs are designed to protect the seeds, the trebuchet is designed to deposit them sufficiently well that they remain viable in their final destination. We hike out there for a couple weeks, do a mass trebuchet dispersal, we come back a year later and observe the results.
      - mylies43 2mo ago
        Would it not be much faster and more efficient to just a use a helicopter to disperse it instead of hiking and setting up a trebuchet? If you are just launching the seed bombs anyways, i feel like a helicopter can cary way more then one person every code, and could just drop a seed bomb every X seconds? Why the need to have people hike out just to launch the seed bombs
        MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
        You lost me at "just use a helicopter". Seriously, rich people, get out of your own bubble heads now and then. A low-tech, low-resource-intensive, no-dependency application of this technology has huge applications around the world. Do you know how much it costs to operate a helicopter per hour? Now scale it to month-long efforts to turn desert into forests. Scale it to a thousand villagers. Scale it to ten thousand villages. >Why the need to have people hike out just to launch the seed bombs. Because re-wilding requires a hands-on approach to be very effective. Just look at what China has done with the Great Green Wall - this was a labor intensive mega-project. Low-tech, highly effective solutions for seed distribution could be of great benefit in that context - without a bit of fancy speculation on our part, we'd still just have deserts and nothing to eat. YES, you could 'just use a helicopter'. You could just sit back on your deck chair and be served mocktails, too. Sometimes, kids, you need to do a bit of hard work.
        HeyLaughingBoy 2mo ago
        > Do you know how much it costs to operate a helicopter Do you know how easy and cheap it is to make gunpowder? I was making black powder rockets from grocery store ingredients when I was 12.
      - anon_cow1111 2mo ago
        The railgun guy might have been having a giggle with you, but you gave him some actual numbers so I'll give you some actual math to go with them. Your biggest problem here isn't the launcher, it's the projectile. It's going to be damn near impossible to get a 1 gram projectile more than a couple hundred yards unless it's a dense metal. Doesn't matter how fast it's going, drag always wins here. 10 grams is more plausible, but then you're looking at ~1000ft-lbs cranking energy to get 10g supersonic (@ 40% efficiency) It's doable and you'll only be burning an extra ~100 calories per day for 200 shots. You might get bored though. An airgun will have far worse efficiency most of the time, though it can launch dart-shape things which can go much further for the material density. You mentioned a bow, which is probably the tradeoff point of everything discussed so far. Flight bows are designed for distance shooting, are lightweight and can go 500 yards easily. The downside is you'll need to make the arrows yourself, cause there ain't no supply chain to sell hundreds at a time cheaply. For the "jUsT uSe a hElIcOpTer lol" comment; No, that's not practical, but you CAN get an RC plane that will carry a couple pounds for a tiny fraction of the cost. In terms of how much area it can cover vs supplies needed, that plane is going to be the least thirsty thing on the mountain, assuming you even need to climb it then.
- ashdksnndck 2mo ago
  I thought human-carried railguns were relegated to sci-fi? The power requirements are so high, the only practical mobile railgun is on a ship.
  - chocrates 2mo ago
    You can buy some on the market now, technically they are coil guns I think. Problem is the muzzle velocity is pretty paltry right now. I think we are stuck behind the energy density of the power source
sawjet 2mo ago
So, a firearm?
- __alexs 2mo ago
  Why move gun, when gun can move bullet?
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  You do know that this thing doesn’t require consumables to operate, right?
  - misnome 2mo ago
    What are you throwing that isn’t a consumable, boomerangs? Also pretty sure several parts of the mechanism would need to be considered consumable if operating over a long period.
    - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
      Seed bombs aren't consumables, they're reproducibles. I could harvest a thousand of them in the time it took you to make a kilo of gunpowder, from local (mountainside) resources .. >Also pretty sure several parts of the mechanism would need to be considered consumable if operating over a long period. Well, that remains to be seen after the optimization steps complete. Fine with me if it takes a year before I have to replace a string. Meanwhile, I'm guessing you are suggesting the "ma' gunpowder" deliveries happen via drone, or helicopter, or methane-powered rocket ship or some such nonsense, lol ..
      - mylies43 2mo ago
        Something reproducible is still consumables? Bread is reproducible and consumable, they dont mean opposite things
        MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
xdertz 2mo ago
if you want low cost and portable, chemistry (i.e. gunpowder) always wins over gravity powered.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  This is so obviously wrong. Show me a field-rechargeable gunpowder-based device for launching things, and I will show you someone who is about to run out of ammo on the side of a mountain they’ve just climbed after a single day of work. Honestly, what the hell. Where do you think gunpowder comes from, thin air? Oh, is gravity a subscription service in your country? Come on, try to at least be sensible about your response.
  - anon_cow1111 2mo ago
    Guns are already ~20-50% efficient at turning chemical energy into kinetic energy. If you're not using a direct chemical reaction for energy, then you're using a human which is a lot less energy-dense than a backpack full of ammo. And yes, people who do avalanche control typically fire explosives out of a cannon or drop them from a helicopter. Getting a machine supply all the energy is the whole idea instead of climbing mountains yourself.
    - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
      Do you not understand the immense amount of energy and resources required to manufacture a single consumable cartridge? The point is to avoid that entirely and harvest gravity. Re-wilding teams already climb far and wide, and this would extend their reach without increasing their dependencies. Ammo is a dependency.
      - anon_cow1111 2mo ago
        Do you not understand your argument is exploring a made-up scenario where we're no longer an industrialized civilization where these things are manufactured cheaply by the billions? And if you INSIST on making everything completely low-tech and renewable, build a potato gun and use high-proof alcohol as fuel. It'll weigh less and last longer than whatever rube-Goldberg trebuchet design you have.
alehlopeh 2mo ago
You’ve got the solution. Now you just need the problem.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Seed bombing is pretty fun. Re-wilding is a huge industry. Field-reloadable ultra-trebuchets that can be carried and deployed across the landscape, instead of stored in a weapons depot, also a big win for energy harvesters, everywhere.
small_model 2mo ago
Carrying an extra 50kg weights up a mountain seems inefficient to me, unless you mean a much lighter one or one that you can use stones you find around where you are?

roer 2mo ago

You'd probably be better off using a rail gun if you want a carriable launcher

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
Really? With the required infrastructure to charge it, also in the backpack, for a few weeks of work too? Is gravity a subscription service in your world?
- roer 2mo ago
  Depends entirely on the specifics of your usecase what concessions you want to make. One launch location or multiple? What frequency of launch? How heavy are the payloads? How good accuracy? What transport methods are available? How long should it operate without maintenance? Is solar an option if we go electric? Etc.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    Multiple locations, thus the need for it to be easily portable. I guess a couple hundred launches a day would be useful for seed-bombing/re-wilding, especially on rugged terrain. Seed-bomb weight: I’d say anywhere from 1-10 grams, maybe? Accuracy - it’s a seed bomb, you want dispersal to happen, so maybe the more interesting question is, how would you design a seed bomb to survive the trebuchet speeds and g-forces while also allowing for directed dispersal in the intended area. Seed-bomb design for impact conditions is also something of interest - some seeds need to be embedded in a layer of soil, some don’t. There are many parameters to optimize in the seed-bomb side of things, too. Transport method: backpack-friendly, I think. I’d hike to an area, set up the trebuchet, and spend the day dispersing in a wide circle around the base. If the terrain is rugged, portability is especially important. Operational time - one thing I think is important is that the trebuchet be resilient for long term use. If Toms’ engineering efforts prove fruitful, I’m sure the material construction will get some optimization such that, perhaps, the only thing that would need to be maintained would be the line - however, this is a known science, see for example the sailing industry, rappel lines, etc. Solar/electric? I think a wind attachment for rewinding might be a bit more productive. The scenario: a team of 5 is off for a month in rugged terrain, with the intent of dispersing targeted seed packages over a wide region. The seed bombs are designed to protect the seeds, the trebuchet is designed to deposit them sufficiently well that they remain viable in their final destination. We hike out there for a couple weeks, do a mass trebuchet dispersal, we come back a year later and observe the results.
    - mylies43 2mo ago
      Would it not be much faster and more efficient to just a use a helicopter to disperse it instead of hiking and setting up a trebuchet? If you are just launching the seed bombs anyways, i feel like a helicopter can cary way more then one person every code, and could just drop a seed bomb every X seconds? Why the need to have people hike out just to launch the seed bombs
      - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
        You lost me at "just use a helicopter". Seriously, rich people, get out of your own bubble heads now and then. A low-tech, low-resource-intensive, no-dependency application of this technology has huge applications around the world. Do you know how much it costs to operate a helicopter per hour? Now scale it to month-long efforts to turn desert into forests. Scale it to a thousand villagers. Scale it to ten thousand villages. >Why the need to have people hike out just to launch the seed bombs. Because re-wilding requires a hands-on approach to be very effective. Just look at what China has done with the Great Green Wall - this was a labor intensive mega-project. Low-tech, highly effective solutions for seed distribution could be of great benefit in that context - without a bit of fancy speculation on our part, we'd still just have deserts and nothing to eat. YES, you could 'just use a helicopter'. You could just sit back on your deck chair and be served mocktails, too. Sometimes, kids, you need to do a bit of hard work.
        HeyLaughingBoy 2mo ago
        > Do you know how much it costs to operate a helicopter Do you know how easy and cheap it is to make gunpowder? I was making black powder rockets from grocery store ingredients when I was 12.
    - anon_cow1111 2mo ago
      The railgun guy might have been having a giggle with you, but you gave him some actual numbers so I'll give you some actual math to go with them. Your biggest problem here isn't the launcher, it's the projectile. It's going to be damn near impossible to get a 1 gram projectile more than a couple hundred yards unless it's a dense metal. Doesn't matter how fast it's going, drag always wins here. 10 grams is more plausible, but then you're looking at ~1000ft-lbs cranking energy to get 10g supersonic (@ 40% efficiency) It's doable and you'll only be burning an extra ~100 calories per day for 200 shots. You might get bored though. An airgun will have far worse efficiency most of the time, though it can launch dart-shape things which can go much further for the material density. You mentioned a bow, which is probably the tradeoff point of everything discussed so far. Flight bows are designed for distance shooting, are lightweight and can go 500 yards easily. The downside is you'll need to make the arrows yourself, cause there ain't no supply chain to sell hundreds at a time cheaply. For the "jUsT uSe a hElIcOpTer lol" comment; No, that's not practical, but you CAN get an RC plane that will carry a couple pounds for a tiny fraction of the cost. In terms of how much area it can cover vs supplies needed, that plane is going to be the least thirsty thing on the mountain, assuming you even need to climb it then.
ashdksnndck 2mo ago
I thought human-carried railguns were relegated to sci-fi? The power requirements are so high, the only practical mobile railgun is on a ship.
- chocrates 2mo ago
  You can buy some on the market now, technically they are coil guns I think. Problem is the muzzle velocity is pretty paltry right now. I think we are stuck behind the energy density of the power source

sawjet 2mo ago

So, a firearm?

__alexs 2mo ago
Why move gun, when gun can move bullet?
MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
You do know that this thing doesn’t require consumables to operate, right?
- misnome 2mo ago
  What are you throwing that isn’t a consumable, boomerangs? Also pretty sure several parts of the mechanism would need to be considered consumable if operating over a long period.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    Seed bombs aren't consumables, they're reproducibles. I could harvest a thousand of them in the time it took you to make a kilo of gunpowder, from local (mountainside) resources .. >Also pretty sure several parts of the mechanism would need to be considered consumable if operating over a long period. Well, that remains to be seen after the optimization steps complete. Fine with me if it takes a year before I have to replace a string. Meanwhile, I'm guessing you are suggesting the "ma' gunpowder" deliveries happen via drone, or helicopter, or methane-powered rocket ship or some such nonsense, lol ..
    - mylies43 2mo ago
      Something reproducible is still consumables? Bread is reproducible and consumable, they dont mean opposite things
      - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago

xdertz 2mo ago

if you want low cost and portable, chemistry (i.e. gunpowder) always wins over gravity powered.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
This is so obviously wrong. Show me a field-rechargeable gunpowder-based device for launching things, and I will show you someone who is about to run out of ammo on the side of a mountain they’ve just climbed after a single day of work. Honestly, what the hell. Where do you think gunpowder comes from, thin air? Oh, is gravity a subscription service in your country? Come on, try to at least be sensible about your response.
- anon_cow1111 2mo ago
  Guns are already ~20-50% efficient at turning chemical energy into kinetic energy. If you're not using a direct chemical reaction for energy, then you're using a human which is a lot less energy-dense than a backpack full of ammo. And yes, people who do avalanche control typically fire explosives out of a cannon or drop them from a helicopter. Getting a machine supply all the energy is the whole idea instead of climbing mountains yourself.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    Do you not understand the immense amount of energy and resources required to manufacture a single consumable cartridge? The point is to avoid that entirely and harvest gravity. Re-wilding teams already climb far and wide, and this would extend their reach without increasing their dependencies. Ammo is a dependency.
    - anon_cow1111 2mo ago
      Do you not understand your argument is exploring a made-up scenario where we're no longer an industrialized civilization where these things are manufactured cheaply by the billions? And if you INSIST on making everything completely low-tech and renewable, build a potato gun and use high-proof alcohol as fuel. It'll weigh less and last longer than whatever rube-Goldberg trebuchet design you have.

alehlopeh 2mo ago

You’ve got the solution. Now you just need the problem.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
Seed bombing is pretty fun. Re-wilding is a huge industry. Field-reloadable ultra-trebuchets that can be carried and deployed across the landscape, instead of stored in a weapons depot, also a big win for energy harvesters, everywhere.

small_model 2mo ago

Carrying an extra 50kg weights up a mountain seems inefficient to me, unless you mean a much lighter one or one that you can use stones you find around where you are?