6 ms·

> The Core Technology Fee, a per-install fee for developers that achieve extraordinary scale, will be replaced by the Core Technology Commission, a simple 5 per

> The Core Technology Fee, a per-install fee for developers that achieve extraordinary scale, will be replaced by the Core Technology Commission, a simple 5 percent commission on digital transactions in apps distributed outside the App Store. The new terms also eliminate the initial acquisition fee and store services fee. [...] > In order to keep EU users as safe as possible, Apple will continue to require every alternatively distributed app to go through Notarization — a baseline review focused on basic functionality and protection from serious threats. All in all, still extremely anti-consumer. If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Why would one computing platform be different from the other?

skybrian 2mo ago
[flagged]
- mzajc 2mo ago
  > $99/year developer membership Yeah... > then why not use a Raspberry Pi or something? Because a Raspberry Pi would be very inconvenient to use as a smartphone, obviously. Doesn't explain why it makes sense to treat one ARM computer as a mildly locked jail (Macs) and another as a hard locked jail (iPhones and other handhelds); I feel like the only explanation here is that the smartphone duopoly has worked hard to condition customers into accepting this.
  - cesarb 2mo ago
    > I feel like the only explanation here is that the smartphone duopoly has worked hard to condition customers into accepting this. This is older than the current smartphone duopoly; IIRC, with a few exceptions like the N900 and the Palm Treo, cell phones were always very locked down. It probably came initially from the phone companies being control freaks, and wanting to restrict which devices (even mechanical ones with no electrical or radio interface) could be attached to their phone system.
    - throwuxiytayq 1mo ago
      Cell phones weren’t always effectively the primary computing devices for most of the human population. > N900 and the Palm Treo Performance-wise, a modern iPhone is more closely comparable to room-sized (building-sized?) supercomputer of that era.
    - pmontra 1mo ago
      Yes, phone companies did not want this parties devices attached to their analog network, which basically was a low voltage power grid. I don't know if we can say that those old phones were locked down: either they could not run any software at all or they run only what they got in their factory settings. Symbian phones, palmtops from the 90s and the like could run apps and I did write a few of them. Usually Java and an emulator on my computer and an upload to the phone. They were almost general purpose computing devices but it was hard to get a 30% tax on them. All of these policies from Apple derive from the will of making money from services, not only from the hardware. It's understandable because it's a lot of money. If apps will ever start losing money to Apple (e.g. they are forced to distribute them for free), apps will be dead, the Store will shut down, nothing could be installed anymore (privacy, safety, think of the children) and everything will be done with a web browser.
  - janalsncm 1mo ago
    You technically don’t need to pay if you just want to run your app on your phone. If you want to distribute your app with Testflight or the App Store you need to pay.
    - mzajc 1mo ago
      As long as you're willing to re-sign and reinstall it every 7 days, that is. The free certificates Apple hands out have expiry set to a week, and AFAIK you can't configure your own iPhone to trust your own certificate.
- cadamsdotcom 2mo ago
  The $99/yr part gives me the ick.
  - NetMageSCW 1mo ago
    Then don’t buy an iPhone.
- user43928 1mo ago
  If what we were discussing was hacky ways of installing apps on your own device rather than distribution to end users, you can do without the Developer membership cost. It would just be limited to 3 apps per device that require to be refreshed every 7 days to continue to be able to open them. Web apps are a non starter for iOS since the only allowed browser on iOS happens to not support crucial standards and may drop your app's persistent data.
  - skybrian 1mo ago
    Not true, I’m running Chrome on my iPad. (Though yes, it uses WebKit.) Also, typically a web app stores state in a database in the server.
cube00 2mo ago
> why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Why would one computing platform be different from the other? If Microsoft had its act together PCs would have been just as locked down as phones are today and we wouldn't be questioning a difference.
- HumblyTossed 2mo ago
  What the heck does this defeatist argument have to do with it???
- repeekad 2mo ago
  I think what you meant to say is if US regulators weren't asleep at the wheel phones would be just as unlocked as PCs.
  - ApolloFortyNine 2mo ago
    Well here's EU regulators working with Apple directly to allow it. I honestly think that's worse, the EU government took the time to allow this directly. It's not just a case of the existing laws not being clear in this instance, it's the EU working with Apple to come up with this 'solution'. 5% tax on all digital transactions (still applies to Kindle ebooks too I'm guessing?) and all applications have to go through an Apple review process. That's ridiculous for a government to explicitly agree to.
    - toukale 2mo ago
      Governments will agree to that because at the end of the day it gives them a party they can go to. In this instance if they want Apple or Google to remove an app they can. It gives them the ability to use that option whenever they don't like something it's not by accident. Its a win-win for them and Apple/Google. You are never going to get the wild wild west we have on the pc platform ever again.
      - AnthonyMouse 1mo ago
        The premise here is that there isn't a single government in the entire world which is more willing to protect its population than oppress it. If that's the case then maybe we need to start considering what kind of alternate mechanisms can robustly mitigate the threat.
ulfw 2mo ago
The messages on Mac are becoming more ridiculous and cumbersome each upgrade though. Kind of sick of jumping through System Settings hoops every time I upgrade an app
- simondotau 1mo ago
  Every time I’m forced to do it[0] I feel good because I’m glad these hoops are unavoidable on all the computers of the people I provide family tech support for. [0] Which is rare. I’m installing random shit all the time using homebrew and it’s basically never an issue.
  - jezek2 1mo ago
    Except it won't show for signed+notarized apps. It's just a minor obstacle to deliver malware. Even stuff on App Store has malware in it. If security was a concern, these hoops would be for all apps, not just unsigned. It just shows the only function it serves is gatekeeping by Apple.
    - anonreplier 1mo ago
      and when malware is discovered in the rare case of signed apps signing can be revoked
      - AnthonyMouse 1mo ago
        Signature revocations are functionally equivalent to malware definitions and correspondingly don't actually require code signing.
        simondotau 1mo ago
        Except that it's easier to invalidate an entire signing certificate than to hope your malware definition satisfies all mechanically generated permutations of the malware.
ben_w 2mo ago
> Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Because malware breaking the sandbox of one of them can mostly only spy on the owner, while malware breaking the sandbox of the other can spy on whoever the owner walks past, GPS trace their movements… Question for those with more industry knowledge than me: If you assume a broken sandbox, is it possible for an app to record phone calls, then use that recording to create a deepfaked voice that can then be transmitted as a new call? My naïve assumption is "yes obviously", but for all I know the hardware has some way to activate a switched circuit from the phone service to the speaker and microphone that can't have other sound data pass through it.
- chrisjj 2mo ago
  > Because malware breaking the sandbox of one of them can mostly only spy on the owner, while malware breaking the sandbox of the other can spy on whoever the owner walks past, GPS trace their movements… Then fix your s****y sandbox, Apple.
  - ben_w 2mo ago
    Sure, great idea. [Incoming call: National Security Agency] "Don't you dare stop our malware doing all that stuff you just said". :P All the other nations' agencies, outisde Five Eyes at least, will probably want to stop the NSA's malware, but may have their own instead.
- xp84 2mo ago
  LOL. That security bogeyman argument is a convenient post-hoc justification. The real reason is much simpler: Because "computers" started out with "Owner can run code of their choice on it" as one of the main definitional qualities agreed upon by the market. Devices which only ran code that the vendor had specially packaged for the device always had other names, like Games Console, Word Processor, MP3 Player, Graphing Calculator, or just plain "Toy." Nobody confused those with computers and nobody accepted them as computers. Phones entered this world already in that second category, long before Apple even considered making one. Apple kept an iron grip at first and after careful consideration, decided to only allow third-parties to even enter on terms extremely favorable and profitable to Apple, and always under their direct control. Closing off the Mac would be very messy and also cause tremendous headaches due to it being the development platform for iOS. They don't want to bother. But the reason iOS is closed is because it's always been closed, and they'll never open it unless forced, because money.
nemothekid 1mo ago
>All in all, still extremely anti-consumer. One thing that ticks me off about this conversation is they are always framed as anti-consumer, instead of anti-developer. It's Tim Sweeney, Mark Zuckerberg, and the ad networks who have the biggest gripe with these policies, not consumers. Consumers are the ones who bear the brunt of the cost when it comes to developers who desperately need to exercise their right to capture every and any piece of data the OS provides. >If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? We saw how developers used that "freedom" - now all almost all software runs in a remote server and is delivered through a sandbox (and even then developers try as hard as possible to poison that as well).
- Barrin92 1mo ago
  >who desperately need to exercise their right to capture every and any piece of data the OS provides. thankfully the EU has extensive privacy regulations prohibiting developers from doing just that, so we can enjoy open platforms instead of being at the mercy of a private corporations protection racket as if it's the 19th century
  - graemep 1mo ago
    Are those regulations adequately enforced? Lots of smaller developers out of jurisdication, and lots of bigger ones treat it as a cost of doing business: the data is worth more than the fines.
  - nemothekid 1mo ago
    >open platforms instead of being at the mercy of a private corporations protection racket as if it's the 19th century But your gripe is not about open platforms. Your gripe is that Apple iOS is not an open platform. Those are two different things, there are open platforms out there. My complaint is that iOS as a closed platform is a feature, and Apple has been a good steward for that platform that has made it a stable computing platform for the general public. Corporations (cosplaying as "poor indie developers"), are simply frustrated that Apple isn't allowing them to abuse their users for extra dollars. These same "developers" who pretend to care so deeply about open platforms don't even distribute their software on Linux. The concern trolling about open platforms is a farce. Picking on epic games again - you can't play Fortnite on Linux. It's "open platforms for me, but not for thee" Forget the advertising angle, lets look at payments. Apple forces you to use their payment processor and they charge a larger fee. What does the consumer get? They get a single control panel for all their subscriptions that they can cancel at any time. "Developers" hate this - not because they want to charge you less, but so that they can make you jump through 50 hoops in order to cancel. If I have to choose between two evil corporations, Apple and the greater tech industry that shit on the web, I'm picking Apple. If I care about open platforms, I'll move to an open platform, not lobby the government for Apple to open theirs.
pepperoni_pizza 1mo ago
> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac For now. It is clear which direction Apple is going.
- stnikolauswagne 1mo ago
  There is a big difference between fighting to keep their walled garden in IOS alive and nuking the entire developer ecosystem that they have built on macos.
  - wiseowise 1mo ago
    There’s a whole layer of VPs banging their head against the wall 24/7 on how to make it possible, don’t worry.
    - rimliu 1mo ago
      [flagged]
      - pelagicAustral 1mo ago
        I'm glad at least one user is thinking about the children.
- rimliu 1mo ago
  Have been seeing this comment for a decade at least now.
janalsncm 1mo ago
> why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Strictly speaking, you can. Enable developer mode, connect your phone to your Mac (you need a Mac), and you can build and install whatever code you want. Asterisks being that your phone will uninstall it after a while I think, and you need to create a free account for Xcode.
- kakacik 1mo ago
  Strictly speaking, I can't, I don't own any Mac nor planning to do so
- user43928 1mo ago
  The up to 3 apps per device stay but cannot be opened after 7 days until refreshed. And "whatever code you want" here excludes JIT compilation, or as I understand it memory that is both writable and executable, as your app would require a special 'entitlement' from Apple.
- phyrex 1mo ago
  You actually need a paid account, even for local installs, if you use certain tech, like NFC
- dotancohen 1mo ago
  Seriously? I have a custom Android app that I use. It's mostly vibe coded now, which I'm a bit embarrassed about, but demonstrates that the bar for custom software is very low at the moment and getting lower. I considered getting an iPhone to replace my S-series Samsung, the only reason I stayed with Samsung is for the S-Pen. Had I gone with iPhone I would not be able to write and run my own software? That's absolutely ridiculous.
wiseowise 1mo ago
> All in all, still extremely anti-consumer. If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Don’t worry. They’re working really hard to fix the bug. It’s not intended that you can install without paying a fee.
- whatsThisBtn4 1mo ago
  It's wild people buy their stuff. Is it just blue bubble? Definitely not security after Pegasus.
  - NetMageSCW 1mo ago
    Because it works better. And doing work is the real reason to have a computer.
    - whatsThisBtn4 1mo ago
      This is just the well documented distortion field. So... Marketing?
    - deleted 1mo ago
      [deleted]
midtake 1mo ago
Because phones are surveillance devices people happen to casually carry everywhere, so the stakes are considerably higher.
walrus01 1mo ago
> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? I just bought a new m5 macbook air. The day that I can't treat my MacOS laptop as basically a glorified NeXT workstation and install/run code of my own choice (albeit after going through a few scary warnings in the default user protecting system preferences, like allow to run unsigned code, etc), is the day I stop buying apple hardware and just use linux laptops again. I see news about apple thinking about "merging" MacOS and iOS and making a touch screen macbook and it really makes me think they are going to try to do this in the near future.
- gcr 1mo ago
  You already can’t download and run an unnotarized binary on M-series Macs without stripping the gatekeeper quarantine flag, so…
  - walrus01 1mo ago
    yes, though the level of headache is relatively minimal. I meant I'd stop using it if things became completely impossible to run unsigned code (or the hassle went from a couple of extra seconds of work to some convoluted process) . Additionally something like this takes less than a minute to do once. https://donatstudios.com/mac-terminal-run-unsigned-binaries https://donatstudios.com/mac-terminal-run-unsigned-binaries
    - OJFord 1mo ago
      I can't see them doing anything that stops homebrew working.
      - johnofthesea 1mo ago
        On the other hand homebrew maintainers a deprecating software that is not signed (like Allacritty and Librecad).
    - eastbound 1mo ago
brainzap 1mo ago
apple had this once, and it ended with chinese qr codes to download illegal apps everywhere
- general1465 1mo ago
  Maybe there is something wrong with app store distribution process itself, because these QR codes are not everywhere for Android, Windows nor MacOS
ubermonkey 1mo ago
>Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Are we really still having this discussion? I feel like you KNOW the answer, and why the market rewards Apple for its position here. The curated experience on iOS is a feature, not a bug.
- lapcat 1mo ago
  > The curated experience on iOS is a feature, not a bug. Which experience do you mean? The crApp Store full of obvious scams? The abuse of the built-in push notifications and apps to advertise Apple "services" on every device? I mean, how many damn times do I have to say no to Apple Arcade or iCloud+?
  - ubermonkey 1mo ago
    These aren't problems I face often. I especially don't get random push notifications about Apple (or any other) services, so I'm not sure what's going on for you. Maybe iOS just isn't for you.
PunchyHamster 1mo ago
> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Because they want more money > Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Because Mac users will buy it anyway
mike_hearn 1mo ago
Apple's internal justification for this is that the iPhone and iPad are consumer devices designed for maximum comfort and safety, whereas the Mac is a device designed for developers and professionals. From their perspective there's legitimate demand for both, and they serve both market needs. BTW you can't download and run arbitrary code on your Mac unless you break out a terminal and do developer-y things, because notarization has been a requirement on macOS for years. There is no clicking through scary warnings. macOS will simply tell you that an unnotarized app is broken and refuse to open it via any GUI path that exists. You'll have to strip the quarantine xattrs at the UNIX level to bypass it.
- NotPractical 1mo ago
  > Apple's internal justification for this is that the iPhone and iPad are consumer devices designed for maximum comfort and safety, whereas the Mac is a device designed for developers and professionals. Then why did they recently launch a MacBook that costs less than an iPhone and a marketing campaign targeted at existing iPhone users? > If you love iPhone, you'll love Mac. Mac is designed to be just as easy to learn as iPhone. https://www.apple.com/mac/mac-does-that/ https://www.apple.com/mac/mac-does-that/ https://www.tiktok.com/@apple https://www.tiktok.com/@apple
  - mike_hearn 1mo ago
    It reflects a change in their internal thinking, perhaps. There's also a circularity issue. To write iOS apps you need a platform more flexible than iOS.
- m463 1mo ago
  > Apple's internal justification for this Actually, it is just apple started with app store/closed with the iphone, and got away with it. for the mac - I don't think they could close the platform. What I think they could do is make the ipad more appealing, add a keyboard, then kill the mac like they killed the mac pro. (fire your low-value customers)
  - 1mo ago
quotemstr 1mo ago
I'm honestly baffled as to how EU regulators can see Apple's behavior as compliance. They're doing everything they did before, perhaps changing only to temporarily turn down the intensity a bit.
musicale 1mo ago
> Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Good question - maybe ask Epic (a video game company known for Fortnite) why they sued Apple and Google while ignoring Sony, Nintendo and (the Xbox portion of) Microsoft. As arstechnica noted: > "That might help explain why console makers feel the need to guard their 30-percent cut on software and microtransaction sales. But it doesn’t really explain why a company like Epic would be OK with paying that fee to Sony but not to Apple." https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple-and-google-it-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple...

skybrian 2mo ago

[flagged]

mzajc 2mo ago
> $99/year developer membership Yeah... > then why not use a Raspberry Pi or something? Because a Raspberry Pi would be very inconvenient to use as a smartphone, obviously. Doesn't explain why it makes sense to treat one ARM computer as a mildly locked jail (Macs) and another as a hard locked jail (iPhones and other handhelds); I feel like the only explanation here is that the smartphone duopoly has worked hard to condition customers into accepting this.
- cesarb 2mo ago
  > I feel like the only explanation here is that the smartphone duopoly has worked hard to condition customers into accepting this. This is older than the current smartphone duopoly; IIRC, with a few exceptions like the N900 and the Palm Treo, cell phones were always very locked down. It probably came initially from the phone companies being control freaks, and wanting to restrict which devices (even mechanical ones with no electrical or radio interface) could be attached to their phone system.
  - throwuxiytayq 1mo ago
    Cell phones weren’t always effectively the primary computing devices for most of the human population. > N900 and the Palm Treo Performance-wise, a modern iPhone is more closely comparable to room-sized (building-sized?) supercomputer of that era.
  - pmontra 1mo ago
    Yes, phone companies did not want this parties devices attached to their analog network, which basically was a low voltage power grid. I don't know if we can say that those old phones were locked down: either they could not run any software at all or they run only what they got in their factory settings. Symbian phones, palmtops from the 90s and the like could run apps and I did write a few of them. Usually Java and an emulator on my computer and an upload to the phone. They were almost general purpose computing devices but it was hard to get a 30% tax on them. All of these policies from Apple derive from the will of making money from services, not only from the hardware. It's understandable because it's a lot of money. If apps will ever start losing money to Apple (e.g. they are forced to distribute them for free), apps will be dead, the Store will shut down, nothing could be installed anymore (privacy, safety, think of the children) and everything will be done with a web browser.
- janalsncm 1mo ago
  You technically don’t need to pay if you just want to run your app on your phone. If you want to distribute your app with Testflight or the App Store you need to pay.
  - mzajc 1mo ago
    As long as you're willing to re-sign and reinstall it every 7 days, that is. The free certificates Apple hands out have expiry set to a week, and AFAIK you can't configure your own iPhone to trust your own certificate.
cadamsdotcom 2mo ago
The $99/yr part gives me the ick.
- NetMageSCW 1mo ago
  Then don’t buy an iPhone.
user43928 1mo ago
If what we were discussing was hacky ways of installing apps on your own device rather than distribution to end users, you can do without the Developer membership cost. It would just be limited to 3 apps per device that require to be refreshed every 7 days to continue to be able to open them. Web apps are a non starter for iOS since the only allowed browser on iOS happens to not support crucial standards and may drop your app's persistent data.
- skybrian 1mo ago
  Not true, I’m running Chrome on my iPad. (Though yes, it uses WebKit.) Also, typically a web app stores state in a database in the server.

cube00 2mo ago

> why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Why would one computing platform be different from the other? If Microsoft had its act together PCs would have been just as locked down as phones are today and we wouldn't be questioning a difference.

HumblyTossed 2mo ago
What the heck does this defeatist argument have to do with it???
repeekad 2mo ago
I think what you meant to say is if US regulators weren't asleep at the wheel phones would be just as unlocked as PCs.
- ApolloFortyNine 2mo ago
  Well here's EU regulators working with Apple directly to allow it. I honestly think that's worse, the EU government took the time to allow this directly. It's not just a case of the existing laws not being clear in this instance, it's the EU working with Apple to come up with this 'solution'. 5% tax on all digital transactions (still applies to Kindle ebooks too I'm guessing?) and all applications have to go through an Apple review process. That's ridiculous for a government to explicitly agree to.
  - toukale 2mo ago
    Governments will agree to that because at the end of the day it gives them a party they can go to. In this instance if they want Apple or Google to remove an app they can. It gives them the ability to use that option whenever they don't like something it's not by accident. Its a win-win for them and Apple/Google. You are never going to get the wild wild west we have on the pc platform ever again.
    - AnthonyMouse 1mo ago
      The premise here is that there isn't a single government in the entire world which is more willing to protect its population than oppress it. If that's the case then maybe we need to start considering what kind of alternate mechanisms can robustly mitigate the threat.

ulfw 2mo ago

The messages on Mac are becoming more ridiculous and cumbersome each upgrade though. Kind of sick of jumping through System Settings hoops every time I upgrade an app

simondotau 1mo ago
Every time I’m forced to do it[0] I feel good because I’m glad these hoops are unavoidable on all the computers of the people I provide family tech support for. [0] Which is rare. I’m installing random shit all the time using homebrew and it’s basically never an issue.
- jezek2 1mo ago
  Except it won't show for signed+notarized apps. It's just a minor obstacle to deliver malware. Even stuff on App Store has malware in it. If security was a concern, these hoops would be for all apps, not just unsigned. It just shows the only function it serves is gatekeeping by Apple.
  - anonreplier 1mo ago
    and when malware is discovered in the rare case of signed apps signing can be revoked
    - AnthonyMouse 1mo ago
      Signature revocations are functionally equivalent to malware definitions and correspondingly don't actually require code signing.
      - simondotau 1mo ago
        Except that it's easier to invalidate an entire signing certificate than to hope your malware definition satisfies all mechanically generated permutations of the malware.

ben_w 2mo ago

> Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Because malware breaking the sandbox of one of them can mostly only spy on the owner, while malware breaking the sandbox of the other can spy on whoever the owner walks past, GPS trace their movements… Question for those with more industry knowledge than me: If you assume a broken sandbox, is it possible for an app to record phone calls, then use that recording to create a deepfaked voice that can then be transmitted as a new call? My naïve assumption is "yes obviously", but for all I know the hardware has some way to activate a switched circuit from the phone service to the speaker and microphone that can't have other sound data pass through it.

chrisjj 2mo ago
> Because malware breaking the sandbox of one of them can mostly only spy on the owner, while malware breaking the sandbox of the other can spy on whoever the owner walks past, GPS trace their movements… Then fix your s****y sandbox, Apple.
- ben_w 2mo ago
  Sure, great idea. [Incoming call: National Security Agency] "Don't you dare stop our malware doing all that stuff you just said". :P All the other nations' agencies, outisde Five Eyes at least, will probably want to stop the NSA's malware, but may have their own instead.
xp84 2mo ago
LOL. That security bogeyman argument is a convenient post-hoc justification. The real reason is much simpler: Because "computers" started out with "Owner can run code of their choice on it" as one of the main definitional qualities agreed upon by the market. Devices which only ran code that the vendor had specially packaged for the device always had other names, like Games Console, Word Processor, MP3 Player, Graphing Calculator, or just plain "Toy." Nobody confused those with computers and nobody accepted them as computers. Phones entered this world already in that second category, long before Apple even considered making one. Apple kept an iron grip at first and after careful consideration, decided to only allow third-parties to even enter on terms extremely favorable and profitable to Apple, and always under their direct control. Closing off the Mac would be very messy and also cause tremendous headaches due to it being the development platform for iOS. They don't want to bother. But the reason iOS is closed is because it's always been closed, and they'll never open it unless forced, because money.

nemothekid 1mo ago

>All in all, still extremely anti-consumer. One thing that ticks me off about this conversation is they are always framed as anti-consumer, instead of anti-developer. It's Tim Sweeney, Mark Zuckerberg, and the ad networks who have the biggest gripe with these policies, not consumers. Consumers are the ones who bear the brunt of the cost when it comes to developers who desperately need to exercise their right to capture every and any piece of data the OS provides. >If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? We saw how developers used that "freedom" - now all almost all software runs in a remote server and is delivered through a sandbox (and even then developers try as hard as possible to poison that as well).

Barrin92 1mo ago
>who desperately need to exercise their right to capture every and any piece of data the OS provides. thankfully the EU has extensive privacy regulations prohibiting developers from doing just that, so we can enjoy open platforms instead of being at the mercy of a private corporations protection racket as if it's the 19th century
- graemep 1mo ago
  Are those regulations adequately enforced? Lots of smaller developers out of jurisdication, and lots of bigger ones treat it as a cost of doing business: the data is worth more than the fines.
- nemothekid 1mo ago
  >open platforms instead of being at the mercy of a private corporations protection racket as if it's the 19th century But your gripe is not about open platforms. Your gripe is that Apple iOS is not an open platform. Those are two different things, there are open platforms out there. My complaint is that iOS as a closed platform is a feature, and Apple has been a good steward for that platform that has made it a stable computing platform for the general public. Corporations (cosplaying as "poor indie developers"), are simply frustrated that Apple isn't allowing them to abuse their users for extra dollars. These same "developers" who pretend to care so deeply about open platforms don't even distribute their software on Linux. The concern trolling about open platforms is a farce. Picking on epic games again - you can't play Fortnite on Linux. It's "open platforms for me, but not for thee" Forget the advertising angle, lets look at payments. Apple forces you to use their payment processor and they charge a larger fee. What does the consumer get? They get a single control panel for all their subscriptions that they can cancel at any time. "Developers" hate this - not because they want to charge you less, but so that they can make you jump through 50 hoops in order to cancel. If I have to choose between two evil corporations, Apple and the greater tech industry that shit on the web, I'm picking Apple. If I care about open platforms, I'll move to an open platform, not lobby the government for Apple to open theirs.

pepperoni_pizza 1mo ago

> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac For now. It is clear which direction Apple is going.

stnikolauswagne 1mo ago
There is a big difference between fighting to keep their walled garden in IOS alive and nuking the entire developer ecosystem that they have built on macos.
- wiseowise 1mo ago
  There’s a whole layer of VPs banging their head against the wall 24/7 on how to make it possible, don’t worry.
  - rimliu 1mo ago
    [flagged]
    - pelagicAustral 1mo ago
      I'm glad at least one user is thinking about the children.
rimliu 1mo ago
Have been seeing this comment for a decade at least now.

janalsncm 1mo ago

> why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Strictly speaking, you can. Enable developer mode, connect your phone to your Mac (you need a Mac), and you can build and install whatever code you want. Asterisks being that your phone will uninstall it after a while I think, and you need to create a free account for Xcode.

kakacik 1mo ago
Strictly speaking, I can't, I don't own any Mac nor planning to do so
user43928 1mo ago
The up to 3 apps per device stay but cannot be opened after 7 days until refreshed. And "whatever code you want" here excludes JIT compilation, or as I understand it memory that is both writable and executable, as your app would require a special 'entitlement' from Apple.
phyrex 1mo ago
You actually need a paid account, even for local installs, if you use certain tech, like NFC
dotancohen 1mo ago
Seriously? I have a custom Android app that I use. It's mostly vibe coded now, which I'm a bit embarrassed about, but demonstrates that the bar for custom software is very low at the moment and getting lower. I considered getting an iPhone to replace my S-series Samsung, the only reason I stayed with Samsung is for the S-Pen. Had I gone with iPhone I would not be able to write and run my own software? That's absolutely ridiculous.

wiseowise 1mo ago

> All in all, still extremely anti-consumer. If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Don’t worry. They’re working really hard to fix the bug. It’s not intended that you can install without paying a fee.

whatsThisBtn4 1mo ago
It's wild people buy their stuff. Is it just blue bubble? Definitely not security after Pegasus.
- NetMageSCW 1mo ago
  Because it works better. And doing work is the real reason to have a computer.
  - whatsThisBtn4 1mo ago
    This is just the well documented distortion field. So... Marketing?
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]

midtake 1mo ago

Because phones are surveillance devices people happen to casually carry everywhere, so the stakes are considerably higher.

walrus01 1mo ago

> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? I just bought a new m5 macbook air. The day that I can't treat my MacOS laptop as basically a glorified NeXT workstation and install/run code of my own choice (albeit after going through a few scary warnings in the default user protecting system preferences, like allow to run unsigned code, etc), is the day I stop buying apple hardware and just use linux laptops again. I see news about apple thinking about "merging" MacOS and iOS and making a touch screen macbook and it really makes me think they are going to try to do this in the near future.

gcr 1mo ago
You already can’t download and run an unnotarized binary on M-series Macs without stripping the gatekeeper quarantine flag, so…
- walrus01 1mo ago
  yes, though the level of headache is relatively minimal. I meant I'd stop using it if things became completely impossible to run unsigned code (or the hassle went from a couple of extra seconds of work to some convoluted process) . Additionally something like this takes less than a minute to do once. https://donatstudios.com/mac-terminal-run-unsigned-binaries https://donatstudios.com/mac-terminal-run-unsigned-binaries
  - OJFord 1mo ago
    I can't see them doing anything that stops homebrew working.
    - johnofthesea 1mo ago
      On the other hand homebrew maintainers a deprecating software that is not signed (like Allacritty and Librecad).
  - eastbound 1mo ago

brainzap 1mo ago

apple had this once, and it ended with chinese qr codes to download illegal apps everywhere

general1465 1mo ago
Maybe there is something wrong with app store distribution process itself, because these QR codes are not everywhere for Android, Windows nor MacOS

ubermonkey 1mo ago

>Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Are we really still having this discussion? I feel like you KNOW the answer, and why the market rewards Apple for its position here. The curated experience on iOS is a feature, not a bug.

lapcat 1mo ago
> The curated experience on iOS is a feature, not a bug. Which experience do you mean? The crApp Store full of obvious scams? The abuse of the built-in push notifications and apps to advertise Apple "services" on every device? I mean, how many damn times do I have to say no to Apple Arcade or iCloud+?
- ubermonkey 1mo ago
  These aren't problems I face often. I especially don't get random push notifications about Apple (or any other) services, so I'm not sure what's going on for you. Maybe iOS just isn't for you.

PunchyHamster 1mo ago

> If I can download and run arbitrary code on my Mac--even if I have to jump through scary warnings--why should I not be able to do so on my phone? Because they want more money > Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Because Mac users will buy it anyway

mike_hearn 1mo ago

Apple's internal justification for this is that the iPhone and iPad are consumer devices designed for maximum comfort and safety, whereas the Mac is a device designed for developers and professionals. From their perspective there's legitimate demand for both, and they serve both market needs. BTW you can't download and run arbitrary code on your Mac unless you break out a terminal and do developer-y things, because notarization has been a requirement on macOS for years. There is no clicking through scary warnings. macOS will simply tell you that an unnotarized app is broken and refuse to open it via any GUI path that exists. You'll have to strip the quarantine xattrs at the UNIX level to bypass it.

NotPractical 1mo ago
> Apple's internal justification for this is that the iPhone and iPad are consumer devices designed for maximum comfort and safety, whereas the Mac is a device designed for developers and professionals. Then why did they recently launch a MacBook that costs less than an iPhone and a marketing campaign targeted at existing iPhone users? > If you love iPhone, you'll love Mac. Mac is designed to be just as easy to learn as iPhone. https://www.apple.com/mac/mac-does-that/ https://www.apple.com/mac/mac-does-that/ https://www.tiktok.com/@apple https://www.tiktok.com/@apple
- mike_hearn 1mo ago
  It reflects a change in their internal thinking, perhaps. There's also a circularity issue. To write iOS apps you need a platform more flexible than iOS.
m463 1mo ago
> Apple's internal justification for this Actually, it is just apple started with app store/closed with the iphone, and got away with it. for the mac - I don't think they could close the platform. What I think they could do is make the ipad more appealing, add a keyboard, then kill the mac like they killed the mac pro. (fire your low-value customers)
- 1mo ago

quotemstr 1mo ago

I'm honestly baffled as to how EU regulators can see Apple's behavior as compliance. They're doing everything they did before, perhaps changing only to temporarily turn down the intensity a bit.

musicale 1mo ago

> Why would one computing platform be different from the other? Good question - maybe ask Epic (a video game company known for Fortnite) why they sued Apple and Google while ignoring Sony, Nintendo and (the Xbox portion of) Microsoft. As arstechnica noted: > "That might help explain why console makers feel the need to guard their 30-percent cut on software and microtransaction sales. But it doesn’t really explain why a company like Epic would be OK with paying that fee to Sony but not to Apple." https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple-and-google-it-ignores-the-same-problems-on-consoles https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/08/as-epic-attacks-apple...