3 ms·

When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by

When observed by a different conscious being, yes. But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. I think that distinction matters because strictly speaking, oneself only has access to one's own consciousness, and that defines one's own understanding of the word "consciousness". It's not possible for me to be you after all, and whatever inferences I make about other people being conscious is based on the fact that I experience my consciousness, and you are similar to me in some specific way (such as being, presumably, a human), therefore you must be conscious. Of course, I'm taking a materialist stance here but that's what's practical to talk about anyway.

munificent 2mo ago
> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out completely. Twilight sedation feels like you temporarily inhabited someone else's body but the experience was so strange that you blocked out almost all of the memory. Sleeping and dreaming is totally different.
- txrx0000 2mo ago
  I've been under general anesthesia, but it does not feel too different. I'm dead when sleeping, and basically never dream. I should have said "dreamless sleep" in the earlier comment to be more precise because dreaming is obviously different, but it happens so rarely I forget it exists.
  - shric 2mo ago
    > basically never dream I’m open to correction but my understanding is everyone dreams when they have REM sleep and everyone has some REM sleep every night unless there are rare medical conditions which would be unhealthy if there is a long period of no REM sleep. People who believe they never dream (including myself before I learned this) simply don’t remember it. If you were woken artificially during REM you might remember fragments.
    - txrx0000 2mo ago
      The last time I dreamt was in April. I'd make a note about it in my day log txt file when it happens. It's not the same as a normal night's sleep, and I would remember it. But I assume not having REM sleep for the past 4 months would mean reduced cognitive functioning, which is obviously not the case, so maybe I simply cannot remember my dreams most of the time. Perhaps memory and consciousness are closely related or even the same process, as there is no way to tell them apart from the inside.
      - awwaiid 2mo ago
        I misread that as "the first time I dreamt...". Anyway yes, as I understand it this should be the last time you _remember_ having dreamt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep says we hit REM multiple times per night normally. ... Also this Wikipedia says we have non-REM dreams. This whole article is interesting, thank you for indirectly prompting me to read up a bit :)
  - munificent 2mo ago
    This is fascinating to me. Your experience is so different from mine. When I wake from sleeping, I have a distinct sense of time passing and can usually tell you what time it is when I first wake up. But under anesthesia, absolutely no sense of any time passing at all.
- hahahaa 2mo ago
  Feels like sleep to me every time. Dreams and all.
  - txrx0000 2mo ago
    Ok, then let's revise the definition to dreamless sleep or anesthesia.
georgemcbay 2mo ago
> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar Having been under general anesthesia once the feeling of just completely not existing for the time period I was under felt very different than sleep does to me.
- txrx0000 2mo ago
  Perhaps it's because I almost never dream. Sleep feels almost just as dead to me. Case in point, I think we're probably talking about slightly different phenomena even when we talk about the same linguistic definition of consciousness. Kind of like how my idea of an "apple" is based on all of the apples I've seen in the past and instances where I've used the word or saw it being used by others, whereas your idea of "apple" is based on your experiences. They must be mostly similar in information content or we wouldn't be able to communicate at all, but the self-or-other distinction is important.
LocalH 2mo ago
Sleep is very subjectively different from anesthesia, in my personal experience. Sleep still carries a feeling of the passage of time, and in fact dreams can feel "more real than real" (I remember my dreams to varying degrees, most often when I drink alcohol, although I don't like to use that as a specific method to remember dreams on demand). Anesthesia, for me, resulted in the absolute cessation of time experience during the process. From my perspective, I went out in the OR and was immediately in the recovery room, even though it had in reality been about an hour.

munificent 2mo ago

> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar, besides the fact that sleep is initiated by oneself, and the wakeful state transition for sleep is more gradual than for anesthesia. Have you been anesthetized before? Different forms are very different, but none of them feel like sleep, at all. General anesthesia feels like a time simply skipped forward. Like a chunk of your memory tape was cut out completely. Twilight sedation feels like you temporarily inhabited someone else's body but the experience was so strange that you blocked out almost all of the memory. Sleeping and dreaming is totally different.

txrx0000 2mo ago
I've been under general anesthesia, but it does not feel too different. I'm dead when sleeping, and basically never dream. I should have said "dreamless sleep" in the earlier comment to be more precise because dreaming is obviously different, but it happens so rarely I forget it exists.
- shric 2mo ago
  > basically never dream I’m open to correction but my understanding is everyone dreams when they have REM sleep and everyone has some REM sleep every night unless there are rare medical conditions which would be unhealthy if there is a long period of no REM sleep. People who believe they never dream (including myself before I learned this) simply don’t remember it. If you were woken artificially during REM you might remember fragments.
  - txrx0000 2mo ago
    The last time I dreamt was in April. I'd make a note about it in my day log txt file when it happens. It's not the same as a normal night's sleep, and I would remember it. But I assume not having REM sleep for the past 4 months would mean reduced cognitive functioning, which is obviously not the case, so maybe I simply cannot remember my dreams most of the time. Perhaps memory and consciousness are closely related or even the same process, as there is no way to tell them apart from the inside.
    - awwaiid 2mo ago
      I misread that as "the first time I dreamt...". Anyway yes, as I understand it this should be the last time you _remember_ having dreamt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement_sleep says we hit REM multiple times per night normally. ... Also this Wikipedia says we have non-REM dreams. This whole article is interesting, thank you for indirectly prompting me to read up a bit :)
- munificent 2mo ago
  This is fascinating to me. Your experience is so different from mine. When I wake from sleeping, I have a distinct sense of time passing and can usually tell you what time it is when I first wake up. But under anesthesia, absolutely no sense of any time passing at all.
hahahaa 2mo ago
Feels like sleep to me every time. Dreams and all.
- txrx0000 2mo ago
  Ok, then let's revise the definition to dreamless sleep or anesthesia.

georgemcbay 2mo ago

> But from the inside observed by oneself, it feels quite similar Having been under general anesthesia once the feeling of just completely not existing for the time period I was under felt very different than sleep does to me.

txrx0000 2mo ago
Perhaps it's because I almost never dream. Sleep feels almost just as dead to me. Case in point, I think we're probably talking about slightly different phenomena even when we talk about the same linguistic definition of consciousness. Kind of like how my idea of an "apple" is based on all of the apples I've seen in the past and instances where I've used the word or saw it being used by others, whereas your idea of "apple" is based on your experiences. They must be mostly similar in information content or we wouldn't be able to communicate at all, but the self-or-other distinction is important.

LocalH 2mo ago

Sleep is very subjectively different from anesthesia, in my personal experience. Sleep still carries a feeling of the passage of time, and in fact dreams can feel "more real than real" (I remember my dreams to varying degrees, most often when I drink alcohol, although I don't like to use that as a specific method to remember dreams on demand). Anesthesia, for me, resulted in the absolute cessation of time experience during the process. From my perspective, I went out in the OR and was immediately in the recovery room, even though it had in reality been about an hour.