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AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more

AI generated code is like IKEA furniture. IKEA furniture embodies many elements of good cabinet making but skips many nonessential elements. And does this more consistently than cabinet makers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices. And will do this more consistently than software engineers who can be bored, incompetent, depressed, burnt out, resentful, tired, having a bad day. Just look at the messages on HN or around you at your colleagues to see how mediocre the average software engineer is.. Today's IKEA is good enough for most people. Tomorrow's AI coding will be good enough for most corporations. Good enough to vastly reduce the need for fine craftsmen and women / software engineers. Good enough to deskill those who call themselves cabinet makers / senior software engineers. These days the cabinet makers I personally know just do contract kitchens for project builders. But IKEA is and AI will be, bad enough that at the high end with special requirements / taste / money / an inflated sense of self worth, some furniture makers still exist and thrive. Perhaps 1% percent of current software engineers of today will be needed in the future when AI code inevitably has the ability to follow good software engineering practice....... And as usual it will mainly be the mediocrities that remain ( so there is hope for you too ), with occasional islands of excellence.

hugodan 2mo ago
...ah the classic middle manager analogy of code is X, where X is nothing like code at all but is being used to drive a point that is just standing on poor grounds. keep it, we have been through "is like building a house", "like following a recipe", "like a living organism", "like $SOMETHING_WITH_COMPONENTS", etc... we can handle your IKEA furniture, thanks you for your contribution
amelius 2mo ago
Having not been formally verified, almost all software today feels cheap. Maybe an AI can change that at some point.
- ChrisGreenHeur 2mo ago
  Yay let’s lock ourselves into the formal verification toolsets, so that we can never use new language features again.
  - Thanemate 2mo ago
    OR new languages and frameworks ever again, since they'll slow down code generation due to lack of training, and from LLM generation standpoint this is a terrible thing to trade off.
    - KronisLV 2mo ago
      Both this and the parent takes are exceedingly odd - don’t you think that it’d lead to the language features also just getting the same proofs, as well as better libraries and frameworks? And do you not think that this would also lead to the LLMs both outputting better code since they’d be trained on the verified stuff and also because we’d have tooling to let agent loops autonomously resolve most of the issues with what they output? I’d rather wait 5-10 years for a stdlib way of handling JSON, XML, YAML, TOML and other formats than using unproven libraries made with unserious practices that have edge cases. The same applies for processing requests, doing any sort of multiprocessing, DB interaction, validations, hell even any and all front end work all they way down to CSS. Don’t even get me started on desktop and server software and OS stuff. Maybe then software engineering can be treated like real engineering.
  - mrob 2mo ago
    Yes. Correct software is more important than developer convenience.
    - ChrisGreenHeur 2mo ago
      Business value is more important than correctness
  - Almondsetat 2mo ago
    When you board a plane, don't you love thinking about how the controllers can make use of the hottest new language features? Perhaps JSON in the stdlib?
quietbritishjim 2mo ago
The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions made, hidden from you, in the background. If it's a throwaway script, that's fine (and I don't mean to undersell this - this is a huge application). If you want a larger program that is going to form part of your business process then it will need at least some level of supervision from an actual expert.
- noisy_boy 2mo ago
  > it will need at least some level of supervision from an actual expert. An expert? An expert or two? Maybe a few experts? Sure, even that is a lot less than how many we use today. Therein lies the issue.
- DanielHB 2mo ago
  Yeah, the analogy is more applicable to reusable software that used to be hand-crafted. For example many enterprise systems like ERPs, CRMs, CMSs, etc. Even in that space there is still plenty of hand-crafted solutions or customization to the enterprise-system that might as well be hand-crafted solutions.
- vladvasiliu 2mo ago
  I think the issue with your rebuttal is that companies think they have a very specific problem that needs solving, so they need bespoke software. Just read on the various HN posts where people complain about PMs moving things around for no reason other than justifying their jobs.
  - whstl 2mo ago
    Yep. And it's not just PMs. Everyone with any responsibility for picking any software in a company will work very hard to make things harder and more expensive, rather than easier. People will ask for a 100k-year app, or whatever is the Ferrari of their business. If they don't get it, they will ask for the complex features they saw in that 100k-year software package, even if they won't use it. If it internal software, they will ask you to develop it. If it's another vendor, they will complain until they get what they want, increasing the cost. If it's vibe-coded, they will try to prompt that until it becomes a mess. I had this with all sorts of people: HR, Sales, translators, artists, marketers, data analysts, testers. Even software engineers are obsessed with having the "most complete" in the shape of Amazon AWS and things like that. The only situation where I didn't see this happening was in startups where people are actually busy.
andai 2mo ago
Ikea cabinet is pleasant to look at, and its design makes sense.
- AndyMcConachie 2mo ago
  But how many times can you take a piece of Ikea furniture apart and put it back together again? I have friends who have moved apartments with the same Billy bookshelf 2-3 times and if they tried it one more time the thing would collapse. Not to belabor the metaphor as heavily as my friend's Billy, but there's a maintenance corellary to be made here. Most Ikea furniture can be put together once, in one place, and left there for a long time. But once you want to change it in place it may just collapse.
  - Calazon 2mo ago
    These are acceptable tradeoffs in many circumstances. It's good that this kind of option is available, while there are other options for people with different priorities.
  - Jensson 2mo ago
    > But how many times can you take a piece of Ikea furniture apart and put it back together again? How many times can you take apart regular furniture and put it back together again? Most furniture doesn't come apart at all, just move the ikea furniture like you move any other furniture don't take it apart every time and you are fine, it would be weaker if it was possible to disassemble it without issue.
    - vladvasiliu 2mo ago
      While I agree with the sentiment that there are tradeoffs, and I, personally, have a bunch of Ikea furniture that I'm happy with since it does exactly what I need it to, I think "just don't take it apart" doesn't work so well with cheaper pieces. I had to move an Ikea dresser from one room to the other and back again, and I don't think it particularly enjoyed it. It seemed quite fragile, and I had to pay attention to not twist it too much. Whereas my grandma's furniture, which was much more solidly built, seemed fine during a long-distance move. Ditto for a Besta TV stand, which seems fine if pressure is applied from the top, much less so if I try to lift it or if it's pushed from the side.
PostOnce 2mo ago
However, Ikea furniture does not tend to collapse a critical moment 90 days after it's been put together because it was unforeseen that the cup you sat on the table would be green, which it wasn't designed to account for. Software isn't furniture, in other words.
- jayd16 2mo ago
  If it's been through a move it just might.
samiv 2mo ago
What a sad analogy. IKEA furniture is mostly cheap particle board crap and it's a shame that we as a humanity have cheapened our lives to the point where IKEA is some kind of standard (and the only thing) most people can afford. Back in the day furniture was artisanal and hand made yet people were able to afford and have it. Isn't that in fact weird, supposedly our societies are richer than ever before but most people can't afford artisanal goods that our forefathers would be able to afford even though they were supposedly so much poorer. (Hint, distribution of wealth matters a lot)
- xyzsparetimexyz 2mo ago
  There's probably also a factor of less artisanal goods being made but yes, I agree
  - bluGill 2mo ago
    I think that is false, there is more artisanal furniture today. In the past people had less furniture and most of it was junk. With power tools people can afford more good furniture, even though it is lost among all the junk. Don't forget that good furniture lasts longer than junk and what the past made is kept for decades. Also with the much larger population today, a small percentage of craftsmen still dwarfs the output of the past.
- eberkund 2mo ago
  It's not weird, it's because we define wealth in terms of buying IKEA furniture that we are considered much wealthier than the past. If the affordability of handmade goods or services were the measure of wealth, then perhaps we are much poorer today. I can see how each viewpoint exhibits some contradicting insights.
  - alberto467 2mo ago
    The industrial goods are what made us all richer and allowed us to specialize even more.
- Rebuff5007 2mo ago
silverpinetea 2mo ago
[dead]
kenniskrag 2mo ago
The problem with this analogy is responsibility. Same set of problems if you have a self driving car imho. Not?
koonsolo 2mo ago
No, coding is more like building. A garden shed can easily be built by an AI. A house? Maybe with supervision. A skyscraper? Good luck with that! And no, garden sheds do not represent 99% of software.
- Calazon 2mo ago
  Sure, but neither do skyscrapers. AI is getting better and better at "house" level building, especially with some supervision.
jinzo 2mo ago
Would say it really depends on the area, also don't have historical data how many 'cabinet makers' there were before around here, but I have been trying to get a custom built cabinet (really simple, just exact measurements to make most of a small space) for a year or so. All of the cabinet makers are so overbooked, that they don't even give out quotes anymore. So ymmv, but I think it also fits this analogy.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
weatherlite 2mo ago
> Perhaps 1% percent of current software engineers of today will be needed in the future when AI code inevitably has the ability to follow good software engineering practice.. So who talks / prompts the agents to do the work - the PM ? he will do his normal job of figma designs, customer strategy , high level requirements etc etc + do all the back and forth and validation with the agent for the actual coding? Will it be a new type of job or will we still call it a software engineer ? And if its a software engineer why do you determine it is only 1% of current software engineers - and if indeed only 1% then how soon does it happen - will it be in 3 years ? 5 years? 15? Dario said last year that this year maybe 50% of white collar new entries gets decimated. Has it happened? If not why not? Our predictions currently suck ass. I'm not saying you're wrong - but you could be very early which is almost the same as being wrong. I don't really care if software development as a career collapses in 10 years. I really do care if it happens next year.
huflungdung 2mo ago
[dead]
classified 2mo ago
> Good enough to vastly reduce the need for fine craftsmen and women / software engineers. By your own description: No. Maybe good enough to replace mediocre-and-worse developers, at best. You have to invest disproportionate work to coax better-than-mediocre work out of an LLM.
xtiansimon 2mo ago
> “Tomorrow's AI coding will be good enough for most corporations” Or for small businesses today who have a need to get things done, but not the knowledge to hire or manage a skilled programmer, nor the budget to pay them what they deserve. I find most of the a16z podcast detestable (ethical & morally), but every now and then an episode is interesting or insightful. Here two founders are giving their time to their dentist’s business needs. Which is to say, the dentist has needs but not the ability to solve them hisself or hire someone. Nevertheless I see opportunities for in-house staff who are working in parallel roles, to take on LLM coding and offering those owners solutions that they can’t hire, or buy—someone who knows the business and can get things done. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a16z-podcast/id842818711 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a16z-podcast/id8428187...
agumonkey 2mo ago
I don't think most projects can be as simple as your metaphor points to. Nobody wants to stop at 6 parts single use programs.
tripleee 2mo ago
Just what I need, to wake up and read yet another baseless "soon your job will be replaced" prediction.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
jayd16 2mo ago
Is IKEA just a drop in for "cheap crap" in this analogy? It's not like all furniture is IKEA by a long shot. I guess in terms of "IKEA is fine if you're 23" AI is fine for throwaway work.
camdenreslink 2mo ago
LLM output is not like IKEA furniture at all. IKEA furniture is mass produced, identical, furniture that can be combined to accomplish some lifestyle goal. LLM code is different every time. Sometimes it’s better than the finest custom carpentry. Frequently it is much worse than IKEA quality (in the metaphor).
ok123456 2mo ago
I thought the whole software engineering profession was built on making more "IKEA-like" programs. Design patterns and general reusability are the pre-cut, pressed particle board, screws, and Allen-tool sets.
fatata123 2mo ago
[dead]
deterministic 2mo ago
> In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices That is not inevitable. It's a big maybe. Today's leading-edge AIs are still far from being good software architects. I constantly have to steer them away from producing spaghetti code. Maybe AI will get there one day. But today's leading-edge models aren't even close yet.

hugodan 2mo ago

...ah the classic middle manager analogy of code is X, where X is nothing like code at all but is being used to drive a point that is just standing on poor grounds. keep it, we have been through "is like building a house", "like following a recipe", "like a living organism", "like $SOMETHING_WITH_COMPONENTS", etc... we can handle your IKEA furniture, thanks you for your contribution

amelius 2mo ago

Having not been formally verified, almost all software today feels cheap. Maybe an AI can change that at some point.

ChrisGreenHeur 2mo ago
Yay let’s lock ourselves into the formal verification toolsets, so that we can never use new language features again.
- Thanemate 2mo ago
  OR new languages and frameworks ever again, since they'll slow down code generation due to lack of training, and from LLM generation standpoint this is a terrible thing to trade off.
  - KronisLV 2mo ago
    Both this and the parent takes are exceedingly odd - don’t you think that it’d lead to the language features also just getting the same proofs, as well as better libraries and frameworks? And do you not think that this would also lead to the LLMs both outputting better code since they’d be trained on the verified stuff and also because we’d have tooling to let agent loops autonomously resolve most of the issues with what they output? I’d rather wait 5-10 years for a stdlib way of handling JSON, XML, YAML, TOML and other formats than using unproven libraries made with unserious practices that have edge cases. The same applies for processing requests, doing any sort of multiprocessing, DB interaction, validations, hell even any and all front end work all they way down to CSS. Don’t even get me started on desktop and server software and OS stuff. Maybe then software engineering can be treated like real engineering.
- mrob 2mo ago
  Yes. Correct software is more important than developer convenience.
  - ChrisGreenHeur 2mo ago
    Business value is more important than correctness
- Almondsetat 2mo ago
  When you board a plane, don't you love thinking about how the controllers can make use of the hottest new language features? Perhaps JSON in the stdlib?

quietbritishjim 2mo ago

The problem with this analogy (actually one of many) is that most people can make do with a cabinet that is literally identical to everyone else's. IKEA is great for that. If you want software that is literally identical to what someone else is using then you don't need AI. You need a license to that software! That is just the traditional software model. AI gives software that is bespoke with hundreds of decisions made, hidden from you, in the background. If it's a throwaway script, that's fine (and I don't mean to undersell this - this is a huge application). If you want a larger program that is going to form part of your business process then it will need at least some level of supervision from an actual expert.

noisy_boy 2mo ago
> it will need at least some level of supervision from an actual expert. An expert? An expert or two? Maybe a few experts? Sure, even that is a lot less than how many we use today. Therein lies the issue.
DanielHB 2mo ago
Yeah, the analogy is more applicable to reusable software that used to be hand-crafted. For example many enterprise systems like ERPs, CRMs, CMSs, etc. Even in that space there is still plenty of hand-crafted solutions or customization to the enterprise-system that might as well be hand-crafted solutions.
vladvasiliu 2mo ago
I think the issue with your rebuttal is that companies think they have a very specific problem that needs solving, so they need bespoke software. Just read on the various HN posts where people complain about PMs moving things around for no reason other than justifying their jobs.
- whstl 2mo ago
  Yep. And it's not just PMs. Everyone with any responsibility for picking any software in a company will work very hard to make things harder and more expensive, rather than easier. People will ask for a 100k-year app, or whatever is the Ferrari of their business. If they don't get it, they will ask for the complex features they saw in that 100k-year software package, even if they won't use it. If it internal software, they will ask you to develop it. If it's another vendor, they will complain until they get what they want, increasing the cost. If it's vibe-coded, they will try to prompt that until it becomes a mess. I had this with all sorts of people: HR, Sales, translators, artists, marketers, data analysts, testers. Even software engineers are obsessed with having the "most complete" in the shape of Amazon AWS and things like that. The only situation where I didn't see this happening was in startups where people are actually busy.

andai 2mo ago

Ikea cabinet is pleasant to look at, and its design makes sense.

AndyMcConachie 2mo ago
But how many times can you take a piece of Ikea furniture apart and put it back together again? I have friends who have moved apartments with the same Billy bookshelf 2-3 times and if they tried it one more time the thing would collapse. Not to belabor the metaphor as heavily as my friend's Billy, but there's a maintenance corellary to be made here. Most Ikea furniture can be put together once, in one place, and left there for a long time. But once you want to change it in place it may just collapse.
- Calazon 2mo ago
  These are acceptable tradeoffs in many circumstances. It's good that this kind of option is available, while there are other options for people with different priorities.
- Jensson 2mo ago
  > But how many times can you take a piece of Ikea furniture apart and put it back together again? How many times can you take apart regular furniture and put it back together again? Most furniture doesn't come apart at all, just move the ikea furniture like you move any other furniture don't take it apart every time and you are fine, it would be weaker if it was possible to disassemble it without issue.
  - vladvasiliu 2mo ago
    While I agree with the sentiment that there are tradeoffs, and I, personally, have a bunch of Ikea furniture that I'm happy with since it does exactly what I need it to, I think "just don't take it apart" doesn't work so well with cheaper pieces. I had to move an Ikea dresser from one room to the other and back again, and I don't think it particularly enjoyed it. It seemed quite fragile, and I had to pay attention to not twist it too much. Whereas my grandma's furniture, which was much more solidly built, seemed fine during a long-distance move. Ditto for a Besta TV stand, which seems fine if pressure is applied from the top, much less so if I try to lift it or if it's pushed from the side.

PostOnce 2mo ago

However, Ikea furniture does not tend to collapse a critical moment 90 days after it's been put together because it was unforeseen that the cup you sat on the table would be green, which it wasn't designed to account for. Software isn't furniture, in other words.

jayd16 2mo ago
If it's been through a move it just might.

samiv 2mo ago

What a sad analogy. IKEA furniture is mostly cheap particle board crap and it's a shame that we as a humanity have cheapened our lives to the point where IKEA is some kind of standard (and the only thing) most people can afford. Back in the day furniture was artisanal and hand made yet people were able to afford and have it. Isn't that in fact weird, supposedly our societies are richer than ever before but most people can't afford artisanal goods that our forefathers would be able to afford even though they were supposedly so much poorer. (Hint, distribution of wealth matters a lot)

xyzsparetimexyz 2mo ago
There's probably also a factor of less artisanal goods being made but yes, I agree
- bluGill 2mo ago
  I think that is false, there is more artisanal furniture today. In the past people had less furniture and most of it was junk. With power tools people can afford more good furniture, even though it is lost among all the junk. Don't forget that good furniture lasts longer than junk and what the past made is kept for decades. Also with the much larger population today, a small percentage of craftsmen still dwarfs the output of the past.
eberkund 2mo ago
It's not weird, it's because we define wealth in terms of buying IKEA furniture that we are considered much wealthier than the past. If the affordability of handmade goods or services were the measure of wealth, then perhaps we are much poorer today. I can see how each viewpoint exhibits some contradicting insights.
- alberto467 2mo ago
  The industrial goods are what made us all richer and allowed us to specialize even more.
Rebuff5007 2mo ago

silverpinetea 2mo ago

[dead]

kenniskrag 2mo ago

The problem with this analogy is responsibility. Same set of problems if you have a self driving car imho. Not?

koonsolo 2mo ago

No, coding is more like building. A garden shed can easily be built by an AI. A house? Maybe with supervision. A skyscraper? Good luck with that! And no, garden sheds do not represent 99% of software.

Calazon 2mo ago
Sure, but neither do skyscrapers. AI is getting better and better at "house" level building, especially with some supervision.

jinzo 2mo ago

Would say it really depends on the area, also don't have historical data how many 'cabinet makers' there were before around here, but I have been trying to get a custom built cabinet (really simple, just exact measurements to make most of a small space) for a year or so. All of the cabinet makers are so overbooked, that they don't even give out quotes anymore. So ymmv, but I think it also fits this analogy.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

weatherlite 2mo ago

> Perhaps 1% percent of current software engineers of today will be needed in the future when AI code inevitably has the ability to follow good software engineering practice.. So who talks / prompts the agents to do the work - the PM ? he will do his normal job of figma designs, customer strategy , high level requirements etc etc + do all the back and forth and validation with the agent for the actual coding? Will it be a new type of job or will we still call it a software engineer ? And if its a software engineer why do you determine it is only 1% of current software engineers - and if indeed only 1% then how soon does it happen - will it be in 3 years ? 5 years? 15? Dario said last year that this year maybe 50% of white collar new entries gets decimated. Has it happened? If not why not? Our predictions currently suck ass. I'm not saying you're wrong - but you could be very early which is almost the same as being wrong. I don't really care if software development as a career collapses in 10 years. I really do care if it happens next year.

huflungdung 2mo ago

[dead]

classified 2mo ago

> Good enough to vastly reduce the need for fine craftsmen and women / software engineers. By your own description: No. Maybe good enough to replace mediocre-and-worse developers, at best. You have to invest disproportionate work to coax better-than-mediocre work out of an LLM.

xtiansimon 2mo ago

> “Tomorrow's AI coding will be good enough for most corporations” Or for small businesses today who have a need to get things done, but not the knowledge to hire or manage a skilled programmer, nor the budget to pay them what they deserve. I find most of the a16z podcast detestable (ethical & morally), but every now and then an episode is interesting or insightful. Here two founders are giving their time to their dentist’s business needs. Which is to say, the dentist has needs but not the ability to solve them hisself or hire someone. Nevertheless I see opportunities for in-house staff who are working in parallel roles, to take on LLM coding and offering those owners solutions that they can’t hire, or buy—someone who knows the business and can get things done. https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a16z-podcast/id842818711 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/a16z-podcast/id8428187...

agumonkey 2mo ago

I don't think most projects can be as simple as your metaphor points to. Nobody wants to stop at 6 parts single use programs.

tripleee 2mo ago

Just what I need, to wake up and read yet another baseless "soon your job will be replaced" prediction.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

jayd16 2mo ago

Is IKEA just a drop in for "cheap crap" in this analogy? It's not like all furniture is IKEA by a long shot. I guess in terms of "IKEA is fine if you're 23" AI is fine for throwaway work.

camdenreslink 2mo ago

LLM output is not like IKEA furniture at all. IKEA furniture is mass produced, identical, furniture that can be combined to accomplish some lifestyle goal. LLM code is different every time. Sometimes it’s better than the finest custom carpentry. Frequently it is much worse than IKEA quality (in the metaphor).

ok123456 2mo ago

I thought the whole software engineering profession was built on making more "IKEA-like" programs. Design patterns and general reusability are the pre-cut, pressed particle board, screws, and Allen-tool sets.

fatata123 2mo ago

[dead]

deterministic 2mo ago

> In the future AI code inevitably will embody most good software engineering practices That is not inevitable. It's a big maybe. Today's leading-edge AIs are still far from being good software architects. I constantly have to steer them away from producing spaghetti code. Maybe AI will get there one day. But today's leading-edge models aren't even close yet.