4 ms·

Why can't the government or a generic drug manufacturer just produce the Lyme Disease vaccine? It is safe and the patent has expired! (Also, I have the same q

by hedora 2mo ago

Why can't the government or a generic drug manufacturer just produce the Lyme Disease vaccine? It is safe and the patent has expired! (Also, I have the same question about the poison ivy immunotherapy pills that were common in the US before the FDA.)

lokar 2mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination
- vintermann 2mo ago
  All those people who claimed to get autoimmune problems after the vaccine, must have been people who went to quite a bit of trouble to get the vaccine in the first place, so I'm not so sure it can all be written off as health panic.
  - lokar 2mo ago
    A problem with vaccines and the public is that when you perform any intervention on many many people, some will happen to (randomly) suffer some issue. To them, it is obviously causation, regardless of what the math (that they do t understand) says.
    - pbhjpbhj 2mo ago
      A further problem is that vaccines generally aren't perfect, some people do get sick. Some people may even die. It's a population-based approach. They save far-far more people. Unfortunately vaccine-denialists will say 'ah this person died from getting a vaccine, we shouldn't vaccinate anyone'. Even if the vaccine saves millions of lives.
      - vintermann 2mo ago
        People who volunteer for a new vaccine can't exactly be called vaccine denialists. I guess the prospect of a Lyme vaccine would appeal a little more to hypochondriacs, but isn't it also possible that this vaccine sometimes triggered whatever autoimmune issues which Lyme possibly triggers? I don't want to dismiss everyone who claims long-term effects after a Lyme infection.
  - maxerickson 2mo ago
    It's a bit of a stretch to describe These claims were investigated by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control, which found no connection between the vaccine and the autoimmune complaints. as "written off as a health panic". Of course you can just say they didn't investigate it enough or whatever, you aren't trying to make a reasoned argument and thus don't need to exercise reason.
  - Aurornis 2mo ago
    Lyme disease has a long, storied history in alternative medicine and anti-vax communities. I would not be surprised if many of the people seeking the vaccine early were in those communities and entered with a distrust of vaccines, but thought the risk of Lyme disease outweighed their perceived risk of the vaccine. Once they got the vaccine they fixated on it as the source of their problems. This exact pattern has been playing out with the COVID vaccine and the HPV vaccine. There are communities who are convinced that every medical problem they had since receiving the HPV vaccine is due to the vaccine, even though they’re all having different health problems that also occur in the overall population.
    - vintermann 2mo ago
      Are you sure you aren't retroactively classifying people in the alternative medicine/anti vax community after they report problems? As I said, these are people who went to some effort to try a novel vaccine. If they do that, I think it's unlikely that they are anti-vaxxers. Presumably they'd also know - or would be told - that the vaccine can't be expected to work on any post-Lyme symptoms you already have.
- KellyCriterion 2mo ago
  There was a link on HN some years ago which reported entering a phase-III trial for a vaccination created by one of the big pharma.
  - KellyCriterion 2mo ago
    Downvoters shouldnt be allowed to vote if they cant use Google: Here is the link for all downvoters :-D https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32465108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32465108 (Aug 2022, exactly what I said with "some years ago")
    - pbhjpbhj 2mo ago
      Downvoters maybe read the link you responded to whilst you didn't? The Pfizer Lyme vaccine is in the Wikipedia article linked that you responded to, and the link there works whilst the link in the story you linked is dead. Whilst it might be nice to remove some downvote privileges we could apply the rules we do have and not complain about downvotes. To my view, your original comment was fine, but I could also see others wouldn't like it.
      - KellyCriterion 2mo ago
        > but I could also see others wouldn't like it. Yes, and thats interesting and allows for sure some question for why getting downvoted, when everything you do is pointing to an article on the same forum to adjacent topic .. and still get a punch :-D
cubefox 2mo ago
There is potentially a new Lyme vaccine coming out in about a year. The review process in Europe just started. https://pharmaphorum.com/news/pfizer-valneva-lyme-vaccine-starts-review-europe https://pharmaphorum.com/news/pfizer-valneva-lyme-vaccine-st...
Aurornis 2mo ago
There is a long, sad history here. Lyme disease is a popular topic into alternative medicine as an explanation for unexplained symptoms. There is a belief in these communities that the standard tests for Lyme disease are not accurate, so people diagnose themselves by vague symptoms like feeling tired or having headaches. It’s a sad situation where people who aren’t finding an explanation for their symptoms get drawn into forums or Facebook groups where groups of people confidently tell them that their symptoms sound like Chronic Lyme Disease and that normal doctors can’t help them. This has created an intense fear of Lyme disease among people who don’t trust doctors and “do their own research”. That group overlaps a lot with anti-vax groups. You can see where this is going. Some people who got the Lyme vaccine because they saw it as the lesser of two evils and then subsequently had medical issues blamed everything on the vaccine, and it blew up into lawsuits and a belief that the vaccine causes these problems. If there was any real problem we’ll never know because the storm was such a mess that it made actual research impossible and scared so many people away from the vaccine that it was withdrawn from the market.

by hedora 2mo ago

lokar 2mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination

vintermann 2mo ago
All those people who claimed to get autoimmune problems after the vaccine, must have been people who went to quite a bit of trouble to get the vaccine in the first place, so I'm not so sure it can all be written off as health panic.
- lokar 2mo ago
  A problem with vaccines and the public is that when you perform any intervention on many many people, some will happen to (randomly) suffer some issue. To them, it is obviously causation, regardless of what the math (that they do t understand) says.
  - pbhjpbhj 2mo ago
    A further problem is that vaccines generally aren't perfect, some people do get sick. Some people may even die. It's a population-based approach. They save far-far more people. Unfortunately vaccine-denialists will say 'ah this person died from getting a vaccine, we shouldn't vaccinate anyone'. Even if the vaccine saves millions of lives.
    - vintermann 2mo ago
      People who volunteer for a new vaccine can't exactly be called vaccine denialists. I guess the prospect of a Lyme vaccine would appeal a little more to hypochondriacs, but isn't it also possible that this vaccine sometimes triggered whatever autoimmune issues which Lyme possibly triggers? I don't want to dismiss everyone who claims long-term effects after a Lyme infection.
- maxerickson 2mo ago
  It's a bit of a stretch to describe These claims were investigated by the FDA and the Centers for Disease Control, which found no connection between the vaccine and the autoimmune complaints. as "written off as a health panic". Of course you can just say they didn't investigate it enough or whatever, you aren't trying to make a reasoned argument and thus don't need to exercise reason.
- Aurornis 2mo ago
  Lyme disease has a long, storied history in alternative medicine and anti-vax communities. I would not be surprised if many of the people seeking the vaccine early were in those communities and entered with a distrust of vaccines, but thought the risk of Lyme disease outweighed their perceived risk of the vaccine. Once they got the vaccine they fixated on it as the source of their problems. This exact pattern has been playing out with the COVID vaccine and the HPV vaccine. There are communities who are convinced that every medical problem they had since receiving the HPV vaccine is due to the vaccine, even though they’re all having different health problems that also occur in the overall population.
  - vintermann 2mo ago
    Are you sure you aren't retroactively classifying people in the alternative medicine/anti vax community after they report problems? As I said, these are people who went to some effort to try a novel vaccine. If they do that, I think it's unlikely that they are anti-vaxxers. Presumably they'd also know - or would be told - that the vaccine can't be expected to work on any post-Lyme symptoms you already have.
KellyCriterion 2mo ago
There was a link on HN some years ago which reported entering a phase-III trial for a vaccination created by one of the big pharma.
- KellyCriterion 2mo ago
  Downvoters shouldnt be allowed to vote if they cant use Google: Here is the link for all downvoters :-D https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32465108 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32465108 (Aug 2022, exactly what I said with "some years ago")
  - pbhjpbhj 2mo ago
    Downvoters maybe read the link you responded to whilst you didn't? The Pfizer Lyme vaccine is in the Wikipedia article linked that you responded to, and the link there works whilst the link in the story you linked is dead. Whilst it might be nice to remove some downvote privileges we could apply the rules we do have and not complain about downvotes. To my view, your original comment was fine, but I could also see others wouldn't like it.
    - KellyCriterion 2mo ago
      > but I could also see others wouldn't like it. Yes, and thats interesting and allows for sure some question for why getting downvoted, when everything you do is pointing to an article on the same forum to adjacent topic .. and still get a punch :-D

cubefox 2mo ago

There is potentially a new Lyme vaccine coming out in about a year. The review process in Europe just started. https://pharmaphorum.com/news/pfizer-valneva-lyme-vaccine-starts-review-europe https://pharmaphorum.com/news/pfizer-valneva-lyme-vaccine-st...

Aurornis 2mo ago

There is a long, sad history here. Lyme disease is a popular topic into alternative medicine as an explanation for unexplained symptoms. There is a belief in these communities that the standard tests for Lyme disease are not accurate, so people diagnose themselves by vague symptoms like feeling tired or having headaches. It’s a sad situation where people who aren’t finding an explanation for their symptoms get drawn into forums or Facebook groups where groups of people confidently tell them that their symptoms sound like Chronic Lyme Disease and that normal doctors can’t help them. This has created an intense fear of Lyme disease among people who don’t trust doctors and “do their own research”. That group overlaps a lot with anti-vax groups. You can see where this is going. Some people who got the Lyme vaccine because they saw it as the lesser of two evils and then subsequently had medical issues blamed everything on the vaccine, and it blew up into lawsuits and a belief that the vaccine causes these problems. If there was any real problem we’ll never know because the storm was such a mess that it made actual research impossible and scared so many people away from the vaccine that it was withdrawn from the market.