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>1920s Russian invasion failed but also was bad. That's a very interesting turn of conversation. I think you are missing a bit from that story when presenting
by drysine 2mo ago
>1920s Russian invasion failed but also was bad.
That's a very interesting turn of conversation. I think you are missing a bit from that story when presenting Poland as a victim[0]:
According to Aviel Roshwald, (Piłsudski) "hoped to incorporate most of the territories of the defunct Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth into the future Polish state by structuring it as the Polish-led, multinational federation." Piłsudski had wanted to break up the Russian Empire and set up the Intermarium federation of various different states: Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and other Central and East European countries that emerged from the crumbling empires after World War I. In Piłsudski's vision, Poland would replace a truncated and vastly reduced Russia as the great power of Eastern Europe. His plan excluded negotiations prior to military victory. <...>
He used military force to expand the Polish borders in Galicia and Volhynia and crush a Ukrainian attempt at self-determination in the disputed territories east of the Curzon Line, which contained a significant Polish minority. On 7 February 1919, Piłsudski spoke on the subject of Poland's future frontiers:
"At the moment Poland is essentially without borders and all that we can gain in this regard in the west depends on the Entente – on the extent to which it may wish to squeeze Germany. In the east, it's a different matter; there are doors here that open and close and it depends on who forces them open and how far".
Polish military forces had thus set out to expand far in the eastern direction. As Piłsudski imagined,
"Closed within the boundaries of the 16th century, cut off from the Black Sea and Baltic Sea, deprived of land and mineral wealth of the South and South-east, Russia could easily move into the status of second-grade power. Poland, as the largest and strongest of the new states, could easily establish a sphere of influence stretching from Finland to the Caucasus".
>that joint invasion of Poland by Russia (Soviet Union) and Germany (Third Reich)
The USSR returned the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920. And I must remind you that just a year earlier Germany, Hungary and Poland jointly dismembered Czechoslovakia[1]:
Germany had started a low-intensity undeclared war on Czechoslovakia on 17 September 1938. <...> This was followed by Polish and Hungarian territorial demands brought on 21 and 22 September, respectively. <...> Poland grouped its army units near its common border with Czechoslovakia and conducted an unsuccessful probing offensive on 23 September. Hungary moved its troops towards the border with Czechoslovakia, without attacking. The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia's assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.
<...>
The Munich Agreement was soon followed by the First Vienna Award on 2 November 1938, separating largely Hungarian inhabited territories in southern Slovakia and southern Subcarpathian Rus' from Czechoslovakia. On 30 November, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland small patches of land in the Spiš and Orava regions.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Soviet_War#Back...
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
- america_sux 1mo agoNot all Poles hate or fear Russia although Poland is thick with propaganda, some of it backed by the West. Source: Am Polish.
- drysine 1mo agoThank you
- matkoniecz 1mo ago> I think you are missing a bit from that story when presenting Poland as a victim And you in turn seem to miss similar quotes from Lenin et all, salivating at subjugation of Poland. > The USSR returned the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920 Yes, in 1920 Russia wanted to conquer Poland but failed then. They managed to succeed in cooperation with Nazi Germany. How that disproves my point that Russian invasions were bad for Poland? > Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland small patches of land in the Spiš and Orava regions Yeah, that was footgun though earlier story is also of interest > provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused. geee, I wonder why (see say Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that proved such suspicion 100% correct) If Russia invade in XXI century and they will manage to find some pretext (returning the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920 or something), how that will make things less bad for Poles? again, I am not making point that Poland is 1000% innocent and Christ of nations or something. Though if you want to compete on who was less murderous, did less genocides and was less oppressive Russia will not win at all.
- drysine 1mo ago>And you in turn seem to miss similar quotes from Lenin et all, salivating at subjugation of Poland. Enlighten me? Meanwhile I'll remind you that Felix Dzerzhinsky[0], who created the predecessor of KGB for Lenin, was a Pole born in Russian Poland. Vyacheslav Menzhinsky[1], his successor, was a Pole too. >How that disproves my point that Russian invasions were bad for Poland? You just don't call what happened around 1920 a Russian invasion, it was yet another Polish attempt at building its own empire that backfired. Especially, if you cite it as a reason for thinking Russia is likely to invade Poland >geee, I wonder why (see say Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that proved such suspicion 100% correct) That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don't cooperate with USSR against Hitler, having signed non-aggression pact with Hitler just 4 years earlier[2], don't be upset that USSR finally signed its own non-aggression pact with Hitler after years of trying to form an anti-Hitler pact with France and the GB (who cited Poland objections as one of the ways to drag its feet).[3] I can't recommend enough the article "Fiasco: The Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance That Never Was and the Unpublished British White Paper, 1939–1940" [3] with "trilingual, multi-archival evidence" to anyone who wants to understand the reasons for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. >If Russia invade in XXI century and they will manage to find some pretext (returning the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920 or something), how that will make things less bad for Poles? Sure, it'll be bad for Poles, just like if Poland burns Moscow once again it will be bad for Russians. But we are not discussing fantasy scenarios? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Menzhinsky https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyacheslav_Menzhinsky [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_declaration_of_non-aggression https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Polish_declarat... [3] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07075332.2018.1458043 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/07075332.2018.14...